RBA just put rates up again to 4.25%

Actually the vast majority of migrants to Australia enter through the 'skilled migration' program, and must pass many tests before they are granted entry.

Shadow, around 40% of 'permanent migrants' are unskilled, and not all of the skilled migrant population make more than Australians.

Your third reference refers to 'temporary' working visas. Most of the higher wages they earn leaves Australia, because these workers are temporary. That hurts money multiplier effect and ability for Australia to build infrastructure.

Further, Australia has over 1,200,000 foreign students, new zealanders, and Pacific Islanders not included in the migrant stats. These don't earn more than Australians....and continue to be over represented in welfare dependency, due to the high number of low skilled and retirees that move to Australia.

The 40% of permanent migrants who are unskilled contribute a net operating deficit to Australia over their first 20 years in Australia as follows:
deficit/migrant over first 20 years
- family parents $105,000
- family contributory $55,000
- humanitarian $30,000
Migrants Fiscal Impact . Access Economics

Australia's intake of foreigners must be made more transparent. Many focus on permanent migration, but the infrastructure issues Australia has are also influenced by student visas, temporary working visas, and Special Category Visas (as issued to NZers). These people are not represented in population growth figures. And yet on average 30,000 NZers have been moving to Australia every year for the last 20 years.
 
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Which says:

Loans go down means less stock in future
Supply stays the same therefore
less stock, same supply =

a) prices go up if those who can afford to buy, do so...

and/or

b) rents go up as those who cannot afford buy need to rent

Peter
 
Shadow, around 40% of 'permanent migrants' are unskilled, and not all of the skilled migrant population make more than Australians.

The majority are skilled, and the average skilled migrant earns more than the average Australian. Of course not every singly one of them earns more, but on average they do.

Your third reference refers to 'temporary' working visas. Most of the higher wages they earn leaves Australia, because these workers are temporary. That hurts money multiplier effect and ability for Australia to build infrastructure.

The temporary workers would generally be here on 457 long-stay work visas. These are four year visas, so I expect most of the earnings will be spent in the Australian economy during those four years - food, accommodation, travel etc. Also, many temporary workers end up staying permanently, so there wouldn't really be a lot of money leaving Australia at all.

http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/[email protected]/Lookup/3416.0Main+Features52009

Increasingly temporary migrants are opting to apply for permanent residency while in Australia, as can be seen from the graph below. The skilled migration scheme accounted for 74% of all onshore additions to the resident population in 2007-08 and this is a trend that has been increasing over the last few years.
 
and now there is this artcile saying that since loan demands have fallen 5 times in a row, and this indicates falls in the next 6 months


http://www.theage.com.au/business/p...-point-to-house-price-fall-20100412-s26r.html

but on the same page, its saying the market is hot!

http://www.theage.com.au/business/p...on-recordbreaking-auctions-20100411-s0ut.html

well, the news of the numbers of home loans declining came today at 11.30 the other news of hot property market is from yesterday auctions numbers. so, may be we should go for home price falling...;)
Anyway, if you want a more accurate analisis the home loans represent the number of loans and is greatly effected by the First home owner and on purchasing of new homes. The auction market represent the upper class that is more effected by the recent rising in home value that allow bigger deposit for the next upper class home (no shortage of money there...)
 
Actually the vast majority of migrants to Australia enter through the 'skilled migration' program, and must pass many tests before they are granted entry. They are assessed based on age, skill set, education, criminal record, employment prospects, language fluency, and they must pay fees of several thousand dollars to enter. I know, because I'm one of them. :D

That is still not a recommendation to let them in. And I see people every day who live here and are clearly not in control of the English language.

I had to go into a bakery just yesterday and couldn't understand the lady serving me. And these people own the business.

I can only imagine the level of English spoken by the parents/grandparents who were sitting on stools out the back. I'm tipping poor to terrible at best.

The whole point is volume of humans.

The issue of whether they have a brain and whether they are contributors and not parasites on the community is beyond our control; even highly educated people still produce offspring who are dropkicks and a waste of space.

I hope you're right, but when I travel through the lower socio-economic areas around Melb, I can't help noticing what is clearly a lot of people who do not come from Australia.

A skilled migrant won't be moving to Dandenong, or Frangers or areas of a similar nature.

The other side of the coin is that the skilled migrants WON'T be moving to these areas, and won't be moving to the countryside - they will be moving into the already over-crowded urban areas, and dare I say it; moving into areas already highly saturated with others from their own country.

Let's assimilate? hardly.

Therefore, to avoid letting more over-population in cities of skilled migrants, and less over-population of unskilled migrants in the not-so-flash areas...shut the gates.
 
That is still not a recommendation to let them in.

...

Therefore, to avoid letting more over-population in cities of skilled migrants, and less over-population of unskilled migrants in the not-so-flash areas...shut the gates.

Well, I wasn't really making any recommendations - just saying what is happening. There's not much you or I can do to influence it either way.

However, the population of the world is growing rapidly, and Australia is a big country with a lot of space. We should be able to accept a reasonable share of the world's growing population.

Rather than shutting the gates, I think we should improve our ability to provide the infrastructure needed to support a rapidly growing population - more housing, better water management, better town planning, more sustainable energy resources, better public transport etc.

I don't think it's fair for Australia to say to the rest of the world - 'you go and expand as much as you want, but we're full here'. We're not full, we are a small population on a massive land mass. Yes, much of that land is uninhabitable with current technology and resource management techniques, but new technology and better management techniques will come with time.
 
I don't think it's fair for Australia to say to the rest of the world - 'you go and expand as much as you want, but we're full here'.

You're right; we shouldn't be saying: 'you go and expand as much as you want, but we're full here'.

What we should be saying is; "keep your penises in your pants you idiots". :D

My question to immigrants is; why do you want to come and live in Australia?

Answer; because our lifestyle (as it is now) is one of the best in the world, and theirs isn't.

Why is that?

Once we become like China, India, Hong Kong - almost all of Asia, UK, USA with all their swarms and fill up the joint, it'll be the end of it.

Just because it aint full now; who says it ever has to be "full"?
 
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You're right; we shouldn't be saying: 'you go and expand as much as you want, but we're full here'.

What we should be saying is; "keep your penises in your pants you idiots". :D

My question to immigrants is; why do you want to come and live in Australia?

Answer; because our lifestyle (as it is now) is one of the best in the world, and theirs isn't.

Why is that?

Once we become like China, India, Hong Kong - almost all of Asia, UK, USA with all their swarms and fill up the joint, it'll be the end of it.

Just because it aint full now; who says it ever has to be "full"?

It is one thing to criticise and dislike skilled immigrants. But it would be unwise to underestimate their importance. Just imagine what would happen if all the skilled migrant IT professionals, Doctors, Accountants etc were to leave Australia? Remember, these people are very talented and if Australia do not accept them they will go to other western countries who will. Just to give you a recent example, when Indian student violence incident was going on New Zealand government was inviting all those students to come and study there as it is more safer. They know how lucrative the foreign student business is.

Don't assume only migrants benefit while the Australian people lose out. Both parties benefit, you just fail to realise. As for the unskilled migrants, even they contribute to your lifestyle by doing the low paid, risky jobs like cab drivers, seven eleven shop keepers. The example you gave of bakery where the owner didn't speak fluent English. If that is so much of hassle why didn't you find a bakery close by operated by Australian?


Secondly, you critise India and China for being overly populated. The single most important reason Australia didn't suffer major recession is China. So Australian economy is heavily dependent on China and may be in future China and India. Who do you think is going to buy all your resources on the back of which you have economic prosperity? Do you think these countries will want to do business with you if you kick their people out?

It is important to get the balance of immigration right, but to critise them just doesn't make economic sense.

Cheers,
Oracle.
 
Who do you think is going to buy all your resources on the back of which you have economic prosperity? .

True. We also export food to these overpopulated places. At 60 million people we have no more food exports as we will be eating it all ourselves.

Do you think these countries will want to do business with you if you kick their people out? .

Who said anything about kicking people out? Who said anything about even stopping immigration? I think most of the population want immigration, just not at a rate that gives us 50 million in 2050 as the current rate does.

It is important to get the balance of immigration right, but to critise them just doesn't make economic sense.

Well, I'm not criticizing them. Immigrants have added greatly to our nation. As they will continue to. I just think it's ridiculous to solve the worlds overpopulation problem by overpopulating this great underpopulated land. We can choose the standard of living we want. Currently it's the best in the world. We can choose to have 100 million, but with the standard of living of Indonesia. We can choose to have 250 million, but with the standard of living of Ethiopia. It's our own choice.

We also choosed to de-industrialise. We did because we could and we have the commodity exports to support us. People aren't moving to Australia to work in our massive industrial centres and factories to make stuff to export. They are coming here to work in service industries, just like most of the rest of us. We should remember what allows us to live the standard of living we do without dirty poluting industry and factories everywhere. Don't kill the golden goose.

See ya's.
 
It is one thing to criticise and dislike skilled immigrants. But it would be unwise to underestimate their importance. Just imagine what would happen if all the skilled migrant IT professionals, Doctors, Accountants etc were to leave Australia? Remember, these people are very talented and if Australia do not accept them they will go to other western countries who will. Just to give you a recent example, when Indian student violence incident was going on New Zealand government was inviting all those students to come and study there as it is more safer. They know how lucrative the foreign student business is.

Don't assume only migrants benefit while the Australian people lose out. Both parties benefit, you just fail to realise. As for the unskilled migrants, even they contribute to your lifestyle by doing the low paid, risky jobs like cab drivers, seven eleven shop keepers. The example you gave of bakery where the owner didn't speak fluent English. If that is so much of hassle why didn't you find a bakery close by operated by Australian?


Secondly, you critise India and China for being overly populated. The single most important reason Australia didn't suffer major recession is China. So Australian economy is heavily dependent on China and may be in future China and India. Who do you think is going to buy all your resources on the back of which you have economic prosperity? Do you think these countries will want to do business with you if you kick their people out?

It is important to get the balance of immigration right, but to critise them just doesn't make economic sense.

Cheers,
Oracle.
Oracle,i will give the people from India one thing,they are very hard workers and it is important no matter where you come from,but the ones i have meet all want upmarket homes cars-private schools,and will work 24-7 to get there,so as long as we have low unemployment keep bringing them in..willair..
 
Marc,

One of the reasons why Australia did well off the GFC was due to immigration and the inflow of people, capital and thus spending.

I find it a bit rich that Australians are whinging about high immigration rates. Tough....the Aborginals had not choicce when the first fleet came in...besides the larger Australian cities are a lot smaller than most global cities. The issue is about Australian public not voting out governments not providing infrastructure.

Far as I am concerned ...white anglo-saxon Australians will need to cope with values changing but will largely remain intact in terms of the British system of law and parliament. Why....because a large portion of immigrants come from Commonwealth countries.

My advise is if people born in Australia don't like what the new Australia is like ...they too have the option of immigrating ...might be a not difficult to find a country more attractive than Australia.

The other thing which I find hilarious is that we are worrying about a a couple of thousand boat people....yet there are tens of thousands of overstayers (mostly from the UK & Ireland) who are people don't concerned about.

People....the world is changing...there is nothing you or I can do to change this. The only thing we can do is accept change...

That is still not a recommendation to let them in. And I see people every day who live here and are clearly not in control of the English language.

I had to go into a bakery just yesterday and couldn't understand the lady serving me. And these people own the business.

I can only imagine the level of English spoken by the parents/grandparents who were sitting on stools out the back. I'm tipping poor to terrible at best.

The whole point is volume of humans.

The issue of whether they have a brain and whether they are contributors and not parasites on the community is beyond our control; even highly educated people still produce offspring who are dropkicks and a waste of space.

I hope you're right, but when I travel through the lower socio-economic areas around Melb, I can't help noticing what is clearly a lot of people who do not come from Australia.

A skilled migrant won't be moving to Dandenong, or Frangers or areas of a similar nature.

The other side of the coin is that the skilled migrants WON'T be moving to these areas, and won't be moving to the countryside - they will be moving into the already over-crowded urban areas, and dare I say it; moving into areas already highly saturated with others from their own country.

Let's assimilate? hardly.

Therefore, to avoid letting more over-population in cities of skilled migrants, and less over-population of unskilled migrants in the not-so-flash areas...shut the gates.
 
That is still not a recommendation to let them in. And I see people every day who live here and are clearly not in control of the English language.

I had to go into a bakery just yesterday and couldn't understand the lady serving me. And these people own the business.

I can only imagine the level of English spoken by the parents/grandparents who were sitting on stools out the back. I'm tipping poor to terrible at best.

T

that's because their vias conditions means they either have to buy a business and employ staff or donate a bucket load of cash to the "reelect Kev07" campaign
 
There's many Australians that don't have a good grasp of the English language so you can hardly have a go at migrants who haven't quite got it yet. It's the best and fastest way to learn, throw yourself in the deep end where you have to learn it. It takes courage to do that. Anyway beside the point.

Tokyo has about 35 million people and that city hums along better than most Australian cities. The difference is infrastructure and also mindset. With such a large population people have to be courteous, respect the rules and give up a little personal space. Population in Tokyo may be extreme but when you consider that that city has nearly twice as many people as our entire country, we have a lot of room, and this notion of losing our quality of life due to overcrowding is rediculous, and I think is just disguised racism.
 
It is one thing to criticise and dislike skilled immigrants.

Never criticised them. Just made an observation, based on an observation. Show me any skilled migrant/s living in upper-kumbukta west.

But it would be unwise to underestimate their importance.
I don't under-estimate their importance - and neither should the Gubbmint. But I don't care about their importance to our community. We have more than enough able-bodied Aussie residents and citizens already who can fill any role if they have the inclination. They should only let in skilled, and fluent English speaking ones. All I care about is not living in a Country filled with bloody selfish, filthy humans - of any race.

Just imagine what would happen if all the skilled migrant IT professionals, Doctors, Accountants etc were to leave Australia? Remember, these people are very talented and if Australia do not accept them they will go to other western countries who will.
Good. See ya's. I'll miss ya's all.
Look, you keep missing my point. It's not about who can do what; it's about bloody bums on seats. I've seen loads of very populated Countries; there is absolutely no benefit to your lifestyle whatsoever to have that much of a population. It's all BS. All it breeds is a bigger sub-class, a bigger welfare class, more taxes to support them and so on.

Just to give you a recent example, when Indian student violence incident was going on New Zealand government was inviting all those students to come and study there as it is more safer. They know how lucrative the foreign student business is.
aah! so it's only about money to the Gubbmint.
And, see what extra population growth has (not) achieved? Harmony and tolerance. yeah.......

Don't assume only migrants benefit while the Australian people lose out. Both parties benefit, you just fail to realise. As for the unskilled migrants, even they contribute to your lifestyle by doing the low paid, risky jobs like cab drivers, seven eleven shop keepers. The example you gave of bakery where the owner didn't speak fluent English. If that is so much of hassle why didn't you find a bakery close by operated by Australian?
The scary thing is, she's probably an Aus citizen, and can't speak English.You can bleat all you like; the bottom line is too many bums on my seat. Get off. Go and live in China. They have a wonderful lifestyle I'm told.

Secondly, you critise India and China for being overly populated.
They are - and so is the USA, the UK, and others - as I said. Why did you select only those two countries for your argument? It's not nice to select only a couple of countries that I've mentioned for your benefit in your racism argument.

They are all filled with mostly very poor people, and only a small percentage of well-off types. Guess who's footing the bill. The ones who are poor? Ultimately the lifestyle drops in these scenarios as Gubbmints struggle to eek out dollars from those who can provide some to feed the swarms.

The single most important reason Australia didn't suffer major recession is China. So Australian economy is heavily dependent on China and may be in future China and India. Who do you think is going to buy all your resources on the back of which you have economic prosperity? Do you think these countries will want to do business with you if you kick their people out?
Could not care less. We can still do quite alright on that score without another forty or fifty million more litterers and traffic jammers. Before China opened up their country to the world about 20 or so years ago there was plenty of other players for us to trade with.
All they have done is allowed the world's industries to find a new place for manufacture using cheap labour. This will end, as it has done in many other countries that used to do the same.

It is important to get the balance of immigration right, but to critise them just doesn't make economic sense.
Again; it's not about economic anything for me; it's all about my lifestyle right NOW, and what it will devolve to with another 30 million running around.
Ask all the poor b@stards stuck in the traffic jam up in Sydney today after the truck smash if we need even ONE more person in this Country. I know their answer.
After a long weekend down here, it can take the punters up to 30 mins just to get on the freeway to go home. Now, this is partly their own fault because they are a flock of sheep who do things the same and at the same time as everyone else, but imagine this scene projected 30 years into the future and with another 30 million sheep wandering around. People aren't going to miraculously change their ways and start not following the herd, or live out in the boondocks where their is plenty of room.

My mother lives in a place called Deniliquin where there is all the room under the sun, and the town is dying a slow death - people moving away. Why? because no-one wants to live out there in the country anymore, and all the farms are being bought by very large corporations that don't need many humans to run them. The mum and dad farmers are being squeezed out, the town businesses need them to survive but they are gone. We are becoming an urbanised world, and the newcomers only want to live in urban surroundings.

Maybe the dead centre of Aus will become green and lush, support life and cities and people will move there...

In your lifetime?
 
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Population in Tokyo may be extreme but when you consider that that city has nearly twice as many people as our entire country,

Still not convinced it's a good thing. Maybe if you like traffic jams, queues, excessive litter, noise, people trying to out-cool each other 24/7..

we have a lot of room,
Isn't it fabulous? But for how much longer? What is Japan's immigration policy like?

and this notion of losing our quality of life due to overcrowding is rediculous, and I think is just disguised racism.
aah! the race card. Standard argument from anyone who hates anyone criticising anything about anyone who is not 10 generation anglo.
I don't care where they come from; just stay where you are and don't crowd me out.
I've already had to move 60km's from Melb to escape humans, and they're still bloody following me.
Every summer the piles of garbage left at the beaches by visitors increases, you can't get a parking spot, there is gridlock down the main street. How do we know the visitors are the cause of the litter? Because as soon as the holidays end, and they go home, the garbage disappears. If that is what increased population is about, you can slam it up your bot-bot.

At least it's making the value of my houses go up. Two sides to every coin, eh?
 
Following on from TC here's a chart from the 20's (source listed at bottom of picture)
 

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Never criticised them. Just made an observation, based on an observation. Show me any skilled migrant/s living in upper-kumbukta west.

Not sure where that is, but the point is they have the choice to live and work anywhere they please, just like you do.


I don't under-estimate their importance - and neither should the Gubbmint. But I don't care about their importance to our community. We have more than enough able-bodied Aussie residents and citizens already who can fill any role if they have the inclination. They should only let in skilled, and fluent English speaking ones. All I care about is not living in a Country filled with bloody selfish, filthy humans - of any race.

So you do agree to let skilled people with fluent English speaking skills into Australia. But these people will also create traffic jams, they might be filthy and bloody selfish. So which one is it going to be?

Good. See ya's. I'll miss ya's all.
Look, you keep missing my point. It's not about who can do what; it's about bloody bums on seats. I've seen loads of very populated Countries; there is absolutely no benefit to your lifestyle whatsoever to have that much of a population. It's all BS. All it breeds is a bigger sub-class, a bigger welfare class, more taxes to support them and so on.
Do you have any stats to prove your point that migrants are bloody bums and are a burden to the Australian government? As far as I am aware all migrants do not have access to any social security benefit for the first 2 years except Medicare.


They are - and so is the USA, the UK, and others - as I said. Why did you select only those two countries for your argument? It's not nice to select only a couple of countries that I've mentioned for your benefit in your racism argument.

India and China represent over 30% of world population. Can you give me a better example of overly populated countries that beats those two? I guess not.

They are all filled with mostly very poor people, and only a small percentage of well-off types. Guess who's footing the bill. The ones who are poor? Ultimately the lifestyle drops in these scenarios as Gubbmints struggle to eek out dollars from those who can provide some to feed the swarms.

They are developing countries making above average progress pulling millions of people out of poverty every year. With the scale of population we are talking about it takes time (decades) to get where a lot of western countries are.

Could not care less. We can still do quite alright on that score without another forty or fifty million more litterers and traffic jammers. Before China opened up their country to the world about 20 or so years ago there was plenty of other players for us to trade with.
All they have done is allowed the world's industries to find a new place for manufacture using cheap labour. This will end, as it has done in many other countries that used to do the same.

Yes, I am sure Australia would have fared very well in the GFC without trading with China. Business profits and Government royalties would have doubled, property prices would have tripled and unemployment would have reached 0%. You are dreaming if you think Australian economy can continue to prosper at the same rate if it stopped doing business with China. It's like saying the middle east can continue to prosper at the same rate if USA stopped buying oil from them.

Again; it's not about economic anything for me; it's all about my lifestyle right NOW, and what it will devolve to with another 30 million running around.
Ask all the poor b@stards stuck in the traffic jam up in Sydney today after the truck smash if we need even ONE more person in this Country. I know their answer.
After a long weekend down here, it can take the punters up to 30 mins just to get on the freeway to go home. Now, this is partly their own fault because they are a flock of sheep who do things the same and at the same time as everyone else, but imagine this scene projected 30 years into the future and with another 30 million sheep wandering around. People aren't going to miraculously change their ways and start not following the herd, or live out in the boondocks where their is plenty of room.

Don't you think the the government's lack of infrastructure and/or truck driver might also be at fault? rather then just blaming the extra people?



The reality here is we live in a democratic country where the majority always wins. As long as the majority of people have no issues with growing population fueled by immigration there is nothing you can do about it.

I personally feel Australia has a lot more capacity to grow and have a larger population. New cities needs to be built and infrastructure in existing cities needs to improve.

Cheers,
Oracle.
 
*snip* I personally feel Australia has a lot more capacity to grow and have a larger population. *snip*

i personally think nothing could be further from the truth.

lack of fertile soil for quaility farming, lack of natural fresh water resources and very large distances between capitals make this country a nightmare AFA planning goes.

i'm no xenophobic, but i see water rationing as a result of our growing pop.
 
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