re:- back is a bit sore & aching

hi, thought this would be a good place to throw this question to the forumites.

my back has been aching for a few months... probably due to excessive driving in the day... so i thought i should go for a massage. I was wondering if there's anyone here, been to a massage to loosen up the back muscles a bit? and who should i see, i mean who is the professional i should consult? what was your first experience like?

thanks in advance.
 
kero

.A few months is a long time to wait.

. Is a massage your first option? Maybe a physio, a GP, or a chiropractor could help?
 
deep tissue massage.
ive had them done at a chiropractor, but the person doing it i guess is a physio.
they get right into you...hurts a bit. have a swim and walk, that works.
 
i'm quite active. i play water polo and swim about 4 times a week for 45 mins... maybe its the darn pillows! :p the company car i drive is not the latest model.... mid 90s hilux and the seat is just losing its support... i'm thinking of getting a back support when i drive... anyone know where to get one?:confused: mmmm, there is a chiropractor that practices opposite my office. will check that out. :rolleyes:
 
u could perhaps try a 'turkish bath' as well, if any around u.
some gorilla covered in hair, who stinks, and weighs 200kg, will beat the living daylights out of you....but damn it feels good after it.
 
kero said:
hi, thought this would be a good place to throw this question to the forumites.

my back has been aching for a few months... probably due to excessive driving in the day... so i thought i should go for a massage. I was wondering if there's anyone here, been to a massage to loosen up the back muscles a bit? and who should i see, i mean who is the professional i should consult? what was your first experience like?

thanks in advance.

I frequently have a combination of deep massage and acupuncture on my back. As Ricardo says, it hurts but feels great afterwards.

Though if it has been sore a few months, I'd go somewhere that can do an xray and see what is going on. Don't muck with it and cause more damage.
 
I think I would track down a physio and get them to check it out.

One thing, is your swim a workout or a relaxing float around ?

If you work hard at things your muscles get knots in them, you need to get some exercise that is relaxing to unwind a bit
 
I practically live at massagers etc and have been going to them most of my adult life.

X Rays needed first to see if there is any underlying problem, deterioration etc.

If all is in order - I'd go for a deep tissue massage next. Like everyone says it hurts but it's great after, and massaging muscles isn't going to cause any other damage.

Chiropractors are good but if the problem is muscular it will pull you body out of shape again quite soon after the visit.

Physio - see them for ongoing help. No point doing all the above if your posture is crap or you have developed bad habits with the way you move (walk, run, swim etc) You may need correctional aids e.g. for your shoes or correctional aids like a back support. They will also help with an exercise routine to strengthen muscle groups.

Cheers
Olly
 
if i ever get a very aching back i can usually trace it to having my driving seat in the wrong position - leaning back to far so that i am slouching forward. i hate having the seat further upright, but cures the back within a few days.

if it continues then go see a reputable oestopath - they treat muscle and joints combined, whereas chiro's treat joints and physios treat muscles only.

the oesto i go to gives a full 20 minute massage before manipulating the joints to pull everything back into place. i used to go to a chiro once a month for years to be put back into place, only to have the tight muscles pull it all back out again by the end of the day. since seeing the oesto i have only had to go three times in the last 8 years.
 
kero

If you drive a lot why not invest in a proper seat?

Eg Recaro, Paratus or similar.

Can move it from car to car.

My physio showed me how small, deep, muscles stabilise the back. These do not receive exercise in the ordinary course of events. There are exercises. See a good sports physio and check neck as well.
 
My neighbour last year had a sore back. It got progressively worse until he saw the Dr. After just about every test known to man, the Dr finally decided the pain was NOT back related. The neighbour by this time was bedridden. A chest xray detected massive lung cancer. Nothing could be done.
 
position in seat

Hi Kero,

I find my lower back aches if I am sitting with my bum not touching the back of the seat.

Every now and then I have to actively force my bum right back to the back of the seat which also causes my back to make contact with the seat - no gaps.

This helps me.

My wife had quite a bit of back pain until she started going to "body balance" classes which is kind of like a mixture of yoga, Tai Chi and Ballet.

She is a lot stronger now in her core muscles and finds it helps her posture and stops the ache.

She said there are a number of guys who are not just wussy types who are joining the class on recommendation by their health professionals.

Good luck!
Cheers,
a/c
 
Kero, I am a physio, but have also trained with chiros and osteopaths in the USA and Australia.

I would be the first to admit there is a lot of unproven crap in all three professions, but physio is getting the most serious about cleaning itself up by doing rigid scientific testing of the therapeutic interventions it peddles.

My advice to you is to ask as many people in your home town who they see.

As Brenda Irwin has pointed out, it is worth getting your back checked out by a GP or a reputable one of the above, rather then trotting off to your local masseuse. The pros know how to assess red flags for cancer, congenital malformations, instability due to spondylolisthesis, and other nasties.




Following is some general advice only for low back pain....and should not be taken in place of professional assessment...


If you have increased your time in the car significantly, and you don't do specific exercise to keep your stomach and back strong, and you have been messing around bending over a lot recently doing renos or digging holes in the garden, then you may have caused a little microtrauma to your lumbar discs.

Some measures you might consider for this are to ensure you get a very pronounced lumbar support when sitting anywhere, including lounge chair and car. You must avoid slumping (let your back flatten out or bend forwards as with digging holes or bening when vacuuming) at any time. If you do, you will keep stretching, tearing, and inflaming the back wall of the lumbar disc/s. I personally use a rolled up bath towel stuck in behind my car seat cover to give me the support I need. It makes all the difference on a long trip.

Most people who get regular relief from back massage have chronic cumulative disc damage bubbling away under all that muscle tightness. Eventually, if you don't learn how to look after your back, you'll go down in a screaming heap with a serious disc bulge. Disc damage is cumulative. That is, the disc never repairs itself effectively. Once you tear it, you are always prone to tearing it again if you don't learn how to protect your back with proper lifting and muscle strengthening support exercise.

Good physios are the best trained to differentially diagnose low back pain causes and prescribe therapy. Most low back pain is not amenable to chiropractic manipulation, except for a subluxed facet or sacroiliac joint, but these are in the minority of back pain causes. Osteos also have done scant serious research into low back pain causes and scientifically validated therapy.

However, in saying this, I cannot recommend all physios. Many do not stay on top of the latest developments, and are more concerned about running you through a sausage factory to keep the cash flow up. If they want to throw countless sessions of electrotherapy (tens, interferential, hvg, vms, magnets) at you, and not do a lot of exercise and pathology education, and hands on therapy, then they aren't practising standards of excellence. Electrotherapy has a very minor role to play, and should only be used to settle light spasm in the intial few visits.

If you do see a good physio, expec them to talk about:

- positions of rest for greatest comfort
- gentle initial exercise for circulation and pain relief
- McKenzies Extension exercises
- Maitlands mobilizations
- taping for increased proprioception
- lumbopelvic braces
- core stability exercises for transversus abdominus, multifidus, and back extensor strengthening.
- staying well hydrated
- not sitting for any longer than 20 minutes before getting up for a stretch and walk. Sitting for long periods is bad for sore backs.
- They might also give you a bit of a massage (deep tissue, myofacial release, trigger point release, muscle energy technique) of quadratus lumborum, erector spinae, the thoracolumbar fascia, iliopsoas, gluts, and piriformis.
- stretch your hams, hip flexors, and butt muscles with hold relax techniques.
- They will also prescibe a comprehensive progressive exercise routine after reviewing your current activity levels.

You should also be prepared for them to refer you onto a GP/specialist if they have doubts about what exactly is going on or if non musculoskeletal causes are implicated. In this case, an x-ray is usually done, followed by a CT scan or MRI if things aren't resolving to the satisfaction of the GP/specialist.
 
Hi TFBruce,
Suffering from back pain (upper and neck) myself , so thank you very much for your long comprehensive post.

I am wondering what has "staying well hydrated" got to do with back pain ?
Thanks,
Salsa
 
S, have you noticed when you get up in the morning, you are taller than after a day on your feet? Your discs constantly have a flow of water in and out, which is dependent on the effects of gravity and movement. If you sit or stand in the one position too long, gravity compresses the disc and drives water out. Moving around, changing positions regularly, and lying down, help water come back into the disc.

Along with water, nutrient and oxygen delivery are dependent on movement, as these are delivered to the centre of the disc via passive diffusion, as there is no direct blood supply to the centre of the discs. If you are dehydrated, it effects the efficiency of passive diffusion and the amount of water available for optimal disc function.

On a more general level, dehydration is one of the nastiest things you can do to age your body. All tissue needs good circulation and an optimal level of moisture. If you get dehydrated, your body pulls water away from tissue back into blood plasma, in an effort to maintain blood volume. This dries your tissues out and prematurely ages them with time. This applies as much to your discs as it does to your brain. :( Further, your muscles and tendons and ligaments are all more prone to tearing when you are dehydrated, as a higher hydration state keeps tissue warmer and wetter more evenly, which means they have more elasticity.
 
There are recent studies that suggest that prescribed exercise programs are no more effective than general exercise.

I realise that this is quite an inflammatory statement esp to the physios amongst us but I can produce the references to articles when my wife gets home from Uni tonight if anyone is interested. But I find walking the dog daily and swimming to be far more effective than Physio or hydrotherapy and I have tried everything.

Cheers,
 
Brenda Irwin said:
My neighbour last year had a sore back. It got progressively worse until he saw the Dr. After just about every test known to man, the Dr finally decided the pain was NOT back related. The neighbour by this time was bedridden. A chest xray detected massive lung cancer. Nothing could be done.

That is a terrible story Brenda. A sore back is a red flag for conditions such as cancer and it is a terrible shame it wasn't caught early enough. We should all realise that onset of pain with no obvious cause can be serious.
 
kero said:
hi, thought this would be a good place to throw this question to the forumites.

my back has been aching for a few months... probably due to excessive driving in the day... so i thought i should go for a massage. I was wondering if there's anyone here, been to a massage to loosen up the back muscles a bit? and who should i see, i mean who is the professional i should consult? what was your first experience like?

thanks in advance.


My experience of massage is that it provides great pain relief but only for a day or so.

You need to see a GP to determine the cause of the pain and then decide the appropriate treatment - this may well be massage or physio. Mucking around with helpful ideas is not getting to the root of it all and may even mask an insidious condition such as Brenda described earlier in this thread. Hopefully it is just some muscle soreness associated with your lifestyle and something easily corrected.

All the best,
 
Simon, you will always be able to go to the literature and find a couple of articles contradicting the status quo or another profession. That's the nature of scientific research. However, the truth is found in many articles, not a couple. And consensus amongst informed peers is usually required to interpret the significance of a couple of novel findings.

The problem with what you are inferring is thus:

- the musculoskeletal and manual therapy literature is polluted with many poor methodologically designed papers. Before 1995, the physio profession was just as guilty of this as others. The chiros and osteos have been slower in improving their study design, though are beginning to produce some good stuff.

And I should add that there is very little evidence base for much of what the medical profession currently do. One example is that orthopedic surgeons heavily prescribe arthroscopies for arthritic knees. There are several papers saying the outcome of these operations are far too ineffective to be used so generally. Unfortunately, the operations are quick and relatively complication free, and are great profit spinners for the surgeons. Another example is that of long term outcome for cortisone shots into plantar fascitis and rotator cuff tendonosis.

Nevertheless, I am one of the biggest critics of the use of electrotherapy and ultrasound in physiotherapy. Early studies in support of it were designed poorly. Recent evidence suggests their efficacy is no better then placebo in most instances. And I would congratulate many of the Aussie physio schools for having adapted to that research comparatively quickly, as they have cut down heavily on its significance. The chiros and osteos are generally slower to evolve their therapies in the light of hard research.

- the definition of what constitutes physio prescribed low back pain exercise and general exercise is highly variable, especially between different countries. Indeed, what constitutes physiotherapy in different countries is highly variable. For instance, much of what is taught as physiotherapy in Australia, is taught as manual therapy in Holland, Scandinavia, the USA and Canada.

I would add that low back exercise as prescribed by physios is evolving rapidly, as the research continues to gain more funding. What was taught 2 years ago has evolved tremendously. Meanwhile, many people have jumped on the bandwagon trying to exploit the latest science about low back pain and core stability exercise. The worst lot is the Pilates movement. Much of what they are pushing was not taught by Joseph Pilate. The Pilates industry have just picked up on what has come out of the pure research being done by the physiotherapy and sports medicine disciplines, and have been more effective at marketing via Hollywood bodies and infomercials.

- I would agree that many inexperienced physios, who are not clinically experienced, do not prescribe a balanced exercise program. They focus on core stability, and thus ignore the importance of a more wholistic program. However, a good physio with a view to getting a long term self managed outcome for their clients, will get the balance right. That is how I work and more and more physios are.

I don't know of any chiropractors or osteopaths who leave their clinic to attend a gym to instruct people on a complete exercise routine. Here's a link to a sample generic wholistic exercise program I start with.

http://www.tekserv.com.au/bruce/AntiAgeing%20RxEx.xls
 
thefirstbruce said:
Simon, you will always be able to go to the literature and find a couple of articles contradicting the status quo or another profession. That's the nature of scientific research. However, the truth is found in many articles, not a couple. And consensus amongst informed peers is usually required to interpret the significance of a couple of novel findings.

The problem with what you are inferring is thus:

- the musculoskeletal and manual therapy literature is polluted with many poor methodologically designed papers. Before 1995, the physio profession was just as guilty of this as others. The chiros and osteos have been slower in improving their study design, though are beginning to produce some good stuff.

And I should add that there is very little evidence base for much of what the medical profession currently do. One example is that orthopedic surgeons heavily prescribe arthroscopies for arthritic knees. There are several papers saying the outcome of these operations are far too ineffective to be used so generally. Unfortunately, the operations are quick and relatively complication free, and are great profit spinners for the surgeons. Another example is that of long term outcome for cortisone shots into plantar fascitis and rotator cuff tendonosis.

Nevertheless, I am one of the biggest critics of the use of electrotherapy and ultrasound in physiotherapy. Early studies in support of it were designed poorly. Recent evidence suggests their efficacy is no better then placebo in most instances. And I would congratulate many of the Aussie physio schools for having adapted to that research comparatively quickly, as they have cut down heavily on its significance. The chiros and osteos are generally slower to evolve their therapies in the light of hard research.

- the definition of what constitutes physio prescribed low back pain exercise and general exercise is highly variable, especially between different countries. Indeed, what constitutes physiotherapy in different countries is highly variable. For instance, much of what is taught as physiotherapy in Australia, is taught as manual therapy in Holland, Scandinavia, the USA and Canada.

I would add that low back exercise as prescribed by physios is evolving rapidly, as the research continues to gain more funding. What was taught 2 years ago has evolved tremendously. Meanwhile, many people have jumped on the bandwagon trying to exploit the latest science about low back pain and core stability exercise. The worst lot is the Pilates movement. Much of what they are pushing was not taught by Joseph Pilate. The Pilates industry have just picked up on what has come out of the pure research being done by the physiotherapy and sports medicine disciplines, and have been more effective at marketing via Hollywood bodies and infomercials.

- I would agree that many inexperienced physios, who are not clinically experienced, do not prescribe a balanced exercise program. They focus on core stability, and thus ignore the importance of a more wholistic program. However, a good physio with a view to getting a long term self managed outcome for their clients, will get the balance right. That is how I work and more and more physios are.

I don't know of any chiropractors or osteopaths who leave their clinic to attend a gym to instruct people on a complete exercise routine. Here's a link to a sample generic wholistic exercise program I start with.

http://www.tekserv.com.au/bruce/AntiAgeing%20RxEx.xls


I must admit to never finding a Physio as you have described.

That research I described is recent and, more importantly ;) , fits in with my opinion. Although your points are well made mate.

Cheers,
 
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