re:- back is a bit sore & aching

[kero]

if i'm not in the office doing admin duties, I'll be in the car doing inspections.... so as you can see there's quite a lot of sitting. maybe i haven't been sitting properly. My body tend to move forward than leaning against the back of the office chair or car seat.

i'll try to make a point to lean back on a chair when working. I am also considering making an appointment with a chiro or physio when i return from hols. want to get it out of the way.

thanks folks.

 

[Brenda Irwin]

On a lighter note, when Les and I went on our honeymoon nearly 16 yrs ago, we returned home and became the talk of the town. Our first stop on returning was the Dr's office. Les had developed a hernia and I had my back out.

 

[thefirstbruce]

On a lighter note, when Les and I went on our honeymoon nearly 16 yrs ago, we returned home and became the talk of the town. Our first stop on returning was the Dr's office. Les had developed a hernia and I had my back out.

Let me guess, the advice was bed rest.......

 

[Lplate]

Let me guess, the advice was bed rest.......

You mean rest in different beds.

 

[natmarie73]

LOL Brenda - does that mean you spent your honeymoon doing a reno?

Seriously though, I too have had lower back pain for years from an old sporting injury and generally having a sedentary lifestyle, only a few years ago it was so bad that I got out of bed in the morning and had to hobble bent over double for the first 10 minutes until I could stand up straight - this was because I spent my days either sitting in front of a computer or laying on the couch watching TV (I was a poor student at the time). I started walking for an hour or so every day and things soon improved, but never really went away. After a few hours of sitting at work, I still got aching back so a few weeks ago I went to a gym and they have put me on a weights program to strengthen my core muscles which are not used during light excersise such as walking. Also I do a stretching program as well. Once my core muscles are stronger then I will be able to move onto a more advanced weight program. Already after two weeks I feel heaps better and fitter and can go days without having any back pain at all. Basically if you have a soft flabby gut or beer belly etc, your back will not be in great shape as the core muscles and abs are very important for supporting the back.

Definately go to the chiro or other specialist doctor though to see if it is muscular or spinal/nerves or something more serious.

Cheers

 

[thefirstbruce]

There are recent studies that suggest that prescribed exercise programs are no more effective than general exercise.

I realise that this is quite an inflammatory statement esp to the physios amongst us but I can produce the references to articles when my wife gets home from Uni tonight if anyone is interested. But I find walking the dog daily and swimming to be far more effective than Physio or hydrotherapy and I have tried everything.

Cheers,

Simon, just realized your wife must be studying med at Uni of Newcastle, where she may be under the influence of Nikolai Bogduk. He has been quite vocal against the physio profession for years. Nevertheless, I have a lot of respect for him. And the physio profession does need to evolve, as it is full of self important 'personalities'. Nevetheless, Bogduk isn't totally impartial. He pushes his own barrow, and that is to do nerve block injections on many with low back pain.

 

[Simon]

Simon, just realized your wife must be studying med at Uni of Newcastle, where she may be under the influence of Nikolai Bogduk. He has been quite vocal against the physio profession for years. Nevertheless, I have a lot of respect for him. And the physio profession does need to evolve, as it is full of self important 'personalities'. Nevetheless, Bogduk isn't totally impartial. He pushes his own barrow, and that is to do nerve block injections on many with low back pain.

All true mate except to the influence he has had. I was a guinea pig in his IDETA trial and it wasn't a positive experience. I am not keen to write more but happy to tell you offline if you are interested. Suffice it to say she is not one of his disciples

One of our closest friends is a Physio newly emigrated from the UK who was so excited when she found that I knew him. You'd have thought he was Elvis. I didn't have the heart to describe his feet of clay to her

I am sorry if I give the impression I dislike Physio's. I have had perhaps 20 treat me (mostly civilian contract Physio's with Defence) and only two ever offered more that heat and TENS. They were great but very short term. I usually felt that the copout used was to stick the hot water bottle on and then the electrodes then tell me to come back the next week. Pretty lucrative work if you can get it I guess.

The most effective treatment I ever had was from an older Chinese chap in shorts and singlet with a fag in his mouth in the back of a little temple in Penang, Malaysia. After asking if I could take pain he screwed what felt like a spoon end into the backs of my knees about ten times each side. Made a terrible little lump in both and was tender for months. He also refused payment but my local friend told me to make a AS$10 donation to the temple. But you know my sciatica was gone for about 14 months (sorry Nikolia - my referred pain). I tried to find him then for a retreatment but couldn't. I would fly back there tomorrow if I knew where he was. And I am as big a sceptic as you would find and was dragged to see him by a Chinese mate who was confident I would be fixed! ( I know some readers who have stuck so far are thinking it was in my head).

My only explanation (and as a sceptic I need something to hang my hat on) is that the contusion he made acted as a long term accupuncture irritant - my GP tells me that sometimes internal stitches are used for the same reason. I found accupuncture effective but only for a few days and the effort and discomfort isn't worth it. Sometimes feeling better with the certain knowledge it will get bad again is worse that staying the same. Possibly only another chronic pain sufferer understands that.

Sorry again if I appear down on Physio's - I am not. They just don't help me.

Cheers mate,

 

[geoffw]

The most effective treatment I ever had was from an older Chinese chap in shorts and singlet with a fag in his mouth in the back of a little temple in Penang, Malaysia.

This reminds me of a treatment I once had at a Buddhist tremple in Thailand.

I had been backpacking for a number of weeks, and doing heaps of walking. I was in northern Thailand (I had been through Penang a number of weeks before). I started to have severe stiffness in my legs- it was getting very difficult to walk. At a local's recommendation, I went to the local temple, where this guy twisted every part of my body into positions I never thought could be twisted.

I left there feeling not a lot better- in fact, in some parts of my body, rather much worse.

But the next morning, the stiffness was gone, and I did not get a recurrence again.

 

[thefirstbruce]

Simon, I came into physio late after experiencing chronic fatigue syndrome for years. I spent around $40k looking for solutions for CFS. That included trips to India, Sikkim, Nepal, Malaysia, USA, and Canada; as well as trying every alternative therapist within 20km of the Sydney cbd, then Brisbane. That's all on top of doing more than 10 GPs, two consultant physicians, 2 neurologists, 1 rheumatologist, 2 psychiatrists.

I used to be very big on alternative therapies. But I realized that there is a lot of crap in many of them. And there are definite limits to the knowledge base of western medicine, which is not often appreciated by its proponents. So, even though not chronic pain, CFS seriously shut down a lot of life opportunity for me.

As for why I did physio, (I also got into med), I learnt to rely on following intuition to claw my way out of CFS. It led me into physio, and I was very cynical about the training I got at Uni of Qld. I walked away from the course half way through, but that same intuition led me back to finish it. I should also mention I also did a BSc and started a PhD coursework in pain processing under a professor who was tightly connected with Wall and Melzack, who your wife might have heard of.

I didn't get on with most physios on the course, as they were smart ass sports jocks, or academically high achieving types who never questioned what was being taught. They had been rewarded in life to rote learn and that's what they did.

Through all my experience, I have learnt to adopt anything that works, and isn't too far fetched. My greatest mentor was an old Osteopath in Pennsylvania. He was truly a wise man and a profound healer.

Your experience of physiotherapists is common. It makes me cringe, and I have often thought of calling myself something else. However, these types are on their way out.

In most circumstances, I will always do moderate hams, hip flexor, piriformis and abductor hold relax stretches on low back pain, on the first visit. The relief in around 4/10 cases makes it worthwhile. Your Asian experience would have helped release the hams, and any associated tethering of the sciatic nerve in the soft tissue of the butt and leg.

I think it might help to view many physios the same as you view doctors in an A&E setting. You'll get the bare minimum attention and intervention, and be told to go and see your GP if things don't get better. The same could be said for physios in hospitals and ADF. And then, there is a lot of variation between GPs as well, as there is private physios.

THough I think you have to be very honest with yourself too, about lifestyle modification with chronic pain. Right exercise, posture, and weight loss can do a lot to relieve chronic back pain. Clients who comply with what is best for their backs is in the extreme minimum.

 

[Simon]

THough I think you have to be very honest with yourself too, about lifestyle modification with chronic pain. Right exercise, posture, and weight loss can do a lot to relieve chronic back pain. Clients who comply with what is best for their backs is in the extreme minimum.

I hear you brother, it is so hard to get motivated to exercise the painful area on those cold mornings.....

 

[MarkR]

Hi kero.

I’ve had issue with my back on & off from my late teens (now in my early 40’s), I’ve done physio, chiro, & have found the best thing for me is a general exercise program. Currently I use a Swiss ball for a fairly short weight routine (back, biceps, chest, triceps, & situps) twice a week. This seems to strengthen the core muscles fine, & combined with biking seems to be doing the trick fine & I get no problems at all. This despite lifting a 25kg 4yr old a few hundred times a day on the weekend ! My back still gets sore doing work where I’m bent over but if it didn’t I’d be surprised.

I’ve had various experiences with physios & have been fortunate to find one who is absolutely incredible. So if you don’t find a good physio keep looking.

I’ve also had excellent results from my chiro, but find either the exercises provided by my physio, or the general exercise training seem to do the trick.

As per previous advice, get yourself checked out, it’s probably long hours driving, but could be more serious. There’s some excellent advice from TFB about the towel for driving (going to use that one myself) & finding a good physio (always cracks me up how wide the breadth of knowledge on this site is, talk about your mastermind group !).

TFB, I had major issues with low immune system & something very similar to CFS (was never diagnosed as having CFS, just 'undefined viral illness'). Went from super fit martial artist to couldn't train, sick all the time, at least once/year in bed ill for 2 weeks straight. Came across a guy in Melb who taugh Qi Gong Dai, 3-6 months later I was healthy once again. BTW, it's also the best hangover cure I've ever found

Cheers
Mark

 

[Simon]

Thanks Mark but CFS isn't one of my problems - not yet at least....

 

[MarkR]

Apologies Simon, post edited, I meant TFB of course.

 

[thefirstbruce]

Hi kero.

I’ve had issue with my back on & off from my late teens (now in my early 40’s), I’ve done physio, chiro, & have found the best thing for me is a general exercise program. Currently I use a Swiss ball for a fairly short weight routine (back, biceps, chest, triceps, & situps) twice a week. This seems to strengthen the core muscles fine, & combined with biking seems to be doing the trick fine & I get no problems at all. This despite lifting a 25kg 4yr old a few hundred times a day on the weekend ! My back still gets sore doing work where I’m bent over but if it didn’t I’d be surprised.

I’ve had various experiences with physios & have been fortunate to find one who is absolutely incredible. So if you don’t find a good physio keep looking.

I’ve also had excellent results from my chiro, but find either the exercises provided by my physio, or the general exercise training seem to do the trick.

As per previous advice, get yourself checked out, it’s probably long hours driving, but could be more serious. There’s some excellent advice from TFB about the towel for driving (going to use that one myself) & finding a good physio (always cracks me up how wide the breadth of knowledge on this site is, talk about your mastermind group !).

TFB, I had major issues with low immune system & something very similar to CFS (was never diagnosed as having CFS, just 'undefined viral illness'). Went from super fit martial artist to couldn't train, sick all the time, at least once/year in bed ill for 2 weeks straight. Came across a guy in Melb who taugh Qi Gong Dai, 3-6 months later I was healthy once again. BTW, it's also the best hangover cure I've ever found

Cheers
Mark

Mark, thanks for qi gong tip. I have had several people recommend this martial art for CFS. If your guy can recommend someone in Brisbane, I will follow it up. I am very open to working with Chi or Qi or prana or kundalini energy. I don't need convincing of its reality, nor the capacity to heal illness via that level. I have seen some quite amazing stuff in my travels and experience. And that's coming from someone who has been an active member of the Australian Skeptics

I'd also be interested to know who your physio is in Melbourne, and what he did that was so great, and same for Chiro. As I have said before, I'd love to see chiro, osteo, and physio merge their best stuff, throw away the rest, and there become one manual therapy practitioner.

 

[ggumpshots]

A few months!!!!!!! and you swim 4 times a week.....your back muscles are fine. I originally was going to say a dr would just refer you to a physio but pehaps there is some deterioration or disease.
My first call would be a good sports Medicine dr or sports Physio. Avoid the standard gp.....they are great for coughs and colds. I have had great results with chiros but would likely go to a physio first

 

[MarkR]

TFB - answer to your questions

Hi TFB, my Qi Gong sifu is Louis Liu, (03) 9557 9882, he operates from McKinnon in Melbourne’s S.E. suburbs. He’s one of the few guys in Australia who does Qi Gong massage (the other two are his students). Noticed he’s running a CAE course as well this year.

He’s on hol’s until Fri 10/2 so if you contact him after then he may be able to refer you to someone in Qld. I was a bit skeptical when I started but had such dramatic results & then a couple of things happened that just blew me away:
Example 1 – back gave out i.e. standing up putting a sock on, next thing I’m on the floor unable to stand. This had happened a few times b4, normally meant a day of pain killers & relaxing & a bit stiff & sore the next day. When I was able to stand I went outside, did 45 mins Qi Gong Dai & at the end of it had full movement, no pain, no stiffness. Now I’m sure some people can explain what & how it was done, all I know is it worked & saved me 1-2 days of pain & stiffness.
Example 2 – Housemate came home complaining of sore back, could hardly walk, at the time I hadn’t practiced any healing Qi Gong, just went & put my hand (gently) on the sore spot, focused on sending energy into the back, 10 mins later she got up in amazement & said “what the F did you just do to me”, both of us were astounded that she had zero pain & full movement again.
Add to that the level of energy I get when I train & the lack of illness, etc & I can’t understand how I don’t train every day for an hour or so……..

Physio – John Leckie, don’t have his number but he operates out of a boxing gym right beside Werribee train station. First time I walked into his office (which at that point was a room in a tanning salon) I thought there were multiple people working from there as there were so many certificates on the wall. What he did for me was identify some muscle imbalance & gave me a simple exercise for my back, & one for my shin splints. He’s also got a martial arts background (trains kick boxers & boxers & is an awesome technician TKD/Boxing/Wing Chung background) so he understands what I’m trying to do with my body. Gave me some simple exercises on a swiss ball, more to do with creating better core balance & awareness of my leg within my body as he wanted to improve my kicking ability
Simple things but I’d been to some highly recommended (AFL level) physios b4 & none had ever been able to solve the problems like John did. He also works on wheel chair athletes & has done stints in old folks homes. He trained in Thai massage in Thailand (speaks fluent Thai) & has trained in a variety of disciplines. If you want his details I can get them & pm them to you.

Chiro – Total Health Chiro in Armadale - they focus on gentle realignment & training the body to reset itself to the right position (blocks for the hips, clicker thingy, etc). I take my 4yr old there once every month or two, he hardly ever gets sick although he’ll get a bit off-colour, but he won’t get properly sick like his friends do. The year I didn’t take he started to get sick regularly, so it seems to work for him & when I was going it seemed good for me. Only go now if I’m sick as it seems to speed my recovery time, that being said I haven’t gone for at least 1 yr (haven’t been sick !).

Cheers
Mark

 

[MarkR]

TFB, Update to the info I posted, John is a Masseur not a physio, although he puts all the expensive & well qualified physio's that I've seen to shame (nothing against physio's btw, the ones I saw just didn't produce any great results for me)

Cheers

 

[thefirstbruce]

Mark, Thanks for the contacts. Will give your Qi Gong man a call in a few days. Your experience with Qi is very common, and I totally believe in it. I have been able to help people similarly, but only when my energy is strong and I am completely reconciled emotionally and mentally. ANd I have had the most unsuspecting people have incredible results treating me. It is the same energy the Reiki-ites think they and they are alone know about and tap into.

I have explored a neurophysiological explanation for this energy experience, and there are many who would attribute it purely to the patient having a belief system receptive to such an energy, and it then being a neural event only. But I believe it has an origin upstream from that.

Re your masseur, I'd agree that just getting a physio qualification doesn't make you a great masseur. My uni course taught around 16 hours of massage.

Many physios don't have hands either strong or sensitive, or both, enough to do it well. But in saying that, it is a big ask to expect anyone to make a living 40 hours a week by doing serious massage. No one would last 7 years doing that, as their hands would pack it in, as well as their minds. And that's what people have to understand about physios. Most are trying to make a living from physio alone, and you have to protect your hands, especially your thumbs. I know a lot of physios that do great massages, but they'd have to charge you $300 an hour to be able to keep the amount of massage to a level sustainable year after year.

I do a lot of massage in my practice, only because I use a lot of techniques from different disciplines, and can preserve my thumbs. And I aim to get people into regular exercise as soon as possible. I firmly believe when you are exercising in a balanced manner, the exercise keeps your tissue in good condition, and you don't need to outsource that personal responsibility.

I'd like to reiterate, that for most people suffering low back pain, lasting relief comes from correct posture, balanced lifestyle, and smart regular exercise aimed at keeping the mind and body strong. Relying on massage or energy techniques time after time, will ultimately dissappoint.

 

[Chilli]

Hi TFBruce with your "online service",
Any words of wisdom for neck pain/stiff, pain going down to one shoulder and arm ?. My GP keeps giving me anti inflamation drugs & pain killers however I believe more could be done . I am doing neck and shoulders stretching ex ATM, and drinklot of water.
Ta

 

[Macca]

Hi TFB,

Excellent reading this thread, it does tend to confirm my belief that a lot of people have forgotten what it feels like to be really healthy.

I try to take a steady walk every day plus a swim a day in summer (at least when it is sunny)

Bruce perhaps you could write a book on "Self Maintenance of our Bodies".

You could post it here and we will all be your first adherents.