Should I do a tafe course on Building & Construction to help with developments?

[scientist]

My long term goal is being able to develop property (buy land, knock down and build higher density dwellings). In line with this goal, I'm considering doing a tafe course to learn more about building - e.g. Cert IV Building & Construction. I think this may help me better deal with builders and contractors I hire (identify points of quality or where I can / cannot cut corners) - I might even be able to project manage things myself and not require a building company, leaving more money on the table for myself.

Does anyone have any advice or comments regarding this? Is it totally unnecessary for developing, or will it help only marginally / not worth doing? Or, for those who are similarly trained, do you find this education gives you more control / confidence / better results with developments?

 

[Peter 14.7]

Humm, yes it would help but how much depends on a few things.

What age are you, how much time will it take to do course, do you have job already, do you have any experience already, what is your long term strategy.

Reply to these and I can help some more.

Peter 14.7
( I am TAFE qualified ex developer)

 

[scientist]

I've got the time. I'm 26 and I run my own business so I currently only work weekends + some at-home work which I set my own hours for. I've certainly got the time for this, it's just a matter of whether it's worth doing.

The Cert IV Building course I have my eye on is 864 nominal hours, I reckon I can do it part time in a year or two, but I will need to enquire further with the Tafe.

As for experience, other than helping my dad out with some home renovations, nothing.

 

[Peter 14.7]

Ok so you have the time and the interest and I assume, the moneym be it bank or cash.....

And the TAFE course is real deal not a junket.

So if you strategy is to go in to Developing it will not hurt but research the course big time as construction courses can be very nuts and bolts. In fact, all courses can be less focussed. I completed a Grad Cert in URBAN ESTATE MANAGEMENT at UTS sydney and most of it was 101 simply stuff I thought, hummm, good not great...

Personally, I would read this place SS over and over.

Then volunteer with a decent developer to look and learn the ropes for say three months.

I think developing and building yourself at this stage is a big risk as any mistakes could be your last. And any bank will want hard equity before they loan the cash. Having a good builder reduced that risk for them.

Developing is very hard, stressful and risky.

Buying IP under the market is a lot easier if wealth creation is the main goal.

Peter

 

[HD_ACE]

Peter, Im in a similar boat. Do you have any recomendations for short tafe courses or part time to learn about the building process, what can and cant be done, the purposes and whyits done that way etc.

Im a hands on guy and so It would be interesting to learn and know for when drawing new plans for developments and exssting houses for changes etc to fully understand all options. And basically what can be built on the land at hand.

cheers

 

[nhg]

To get the licence you need 3 things:
http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/f...nce_classes_and_qualifications/Building.page?

1. Cert IV in Building and Construction
2. Diploma in Construction or Bachelors of Engineering or something of the like
3. 2 years experience

The Cert IV is fairly easy, just extremely time consuming. If you can't do the other two, then there is no real point to do the building Cert IV.

However, I think it's worth it as it works towards your long term vision, but it is no walk in the park to get the licence. Especially if you are not directly in the industry, it's hard to cross things over to make it count.

I don't feel you particularly learn anything in the Tafe Course, it's just a process to undertake. Like my engineering degree. I only really learnt once I went out into the field and got hands on in managing projects, and even more so when I took a shovel and joined the team in doing the work.

Experience with your dad wouldn't count, it has to be with an unrelated licence holder. Fortunately for me I have mentors who check my work and make sure I'm doing things right. That's the hard part, it takes time to find, and a bit of luck.

Did you want to be a builder or a developer? Developers don't need licences, it is your job to put the deal together. They are two different things.

 

[Scott No Mates]

Only residential builders need a licence, you can build a skyscraper or a harbour bridge without a licence but can't do a $25k reno on a house.

Getting the qualification doesn't mean that you need to get the licence (how many people go thru the law course at uni not to use it in a law firm?).

 

[nhg]

Only residential builders need a licence, you can build a skyscraper or a harbour bridge without a licence but can't do a $25k reno on a house.

Getting the qualification doesn't mean that you need to get the licence (how many people go thru the law course at uni not to use it in a law firm?).

Agreed, yet I think it would be most beneficial just to keep doing what he is doing and being hands on with his reno projects. I'm doing the tafe course and don't find it particularly useful (granted I had covered a lot of it in my Bachelors degree and moreso from working in a related industry).

 

[Peter 14.7]

NHG is right.

I went a similar path.

Would I do the course now if I wanted to be a developer? No. BUt where do you get the knowledge from. Those "courses" where so called bloody experts sign you up to some Developers university are BS, IMO.

The nearest thing to prop development is land economics degree and most don't go on to develop. Like any architect never swing a hammer or develop for profit.

Learn here, and perhaps find someone at SS developing themselves like Michael Whyte did in Sydney and then ask to be lackey to learn.

At late 40 i know so much only because I have working in the game and seen it go wrong or right and thankfully with other person money.

Again, your strategy is to be a developer then go find one and work cheap but development is NOT easy and A BIG PUNT. Find Michael Whyte MONA VALE thread and see what can go wrong and how a 2 year deal because 8 year journey.

I know this is not helping that much.

Peter

 

[Orks]

I've just finished the Cert IV Building and Construction (Site Supervisor) course. I found some parts of it dead easy, and other parts like the structural principles and estimating/interpreting plans to be a bit trickier as I come from an accounting/finance background not building.

I only did the course so our family business has a backup building supervisor for when our current one retires or leaves, I would say it isn't really that helpful if you aren't currently in the industry or you have experienced people you can get development knowledge from.

It seemed like a course that was really for people that already know what they are doing but have never done much study and need a qualification to get a license so they can get off the tools and into a construction management/supervisor role. It was a handy course, but if you don't need it for a specific purpose then I reckon you are better off just finding people in the industry and badgering them for info, otherwise it's a long commitment for not a lot of benefit if you are looking for development knowledge.

 

[Peter 14.7]

+1 Orks.

The trick is to be born Italian or Greek or Chinese then you learn in the family business.

Us Anglos are disadvantaged

Peter

 

[Ace in the Hole]

The course is good if you're a slow learner, bad if you're a fast learner.
There's much more efficient ways to learn.
Practical experience is one of them.
Internet is another.

 

[Peter 14.7]

The course is good if you're a slow learner, bad if you're a fast learner.
There's much more efficient ways to learn.
Practical experience is one of them.
Internet is another.

LOL

This statement reminds me of my TAFE course.

First night in drawing 101 ( or what ever it was called).
Tough talking teacher came in and said "ok, shut up, get pencils out, do this,
Line here, line there , box here and box there", then he said OK (15 minutes later) you have just learnt to do a title block, now, practise.

For the chippies this was tough stuff but i was already a draftsman!

So I literally put my hand up and said, "excuse me sir, I design complete homes for a living, how do I get an exemption here, no offence."

He looked me over and said "OK bring in plans new week", I did and he saw and said ok, your exempt.

COOL!

But on Q & E quantities and estimating I worked my butt off! So much first principles costing to do!!!!! Worthwhile that was.

Peter

 

[nhg]

The course is good if you're a slow learner, bad if you're a fast learner.
There's much more efficient ways to learn.
Practical experience is one of them.
Internet is another.

Yep. when i was in class i wanted to stab myself in the eye.

It blew my mind when i realised of the 30 people in class, 28 were doing it to earn 'great money' which was what my mate and i were already on. same as the develooment masters i was enrolled in. i unenrolled when i found out the lecturer hadnt been on a construction site in 40 years.

There are better ways to learn. depends what you are doing it for. do it if you need the licence, however, and this is a personal view, formal studies are not very helpful if you want to do something 'off the grid'.

Construction management for instance rarely makes you a developer, let alone a succeasful one.

 

[Peter 14.7]

In my day it was to get a License.

32 started,
12 finished in year 3.

Years later I finally did Uni as post grad and yes, even there some lecturers were very poor.

Peter

 

[Chomp]

I like this book, you should read it;

"profit from property" philip thomas

I am a registered builder and what I have come to realize is that Building & Development are two completely different things.

I'm not saying knowing more about construction wouldn't help you but like anything time & $ is it worth your while ? I think your money / time would be better spent employing the relevant people to help you.

I also think knowing R Codes / local council requirements, zonings, setbacks, plot ratio's etc.. would be a better start.

Chomp

 

[Peter 14.7]

Agree.

I was taught, you make the money when you buy the land, not in the building.

That is, buy a block that fits 2 but you can get three due to savvy knowledge etc.. then bingo, you make $$$$.

The reverse is disaster.

An example is this.

A friend over 10 years bought four houses with large back yards in the row. The end one faced a street from the side. He cut the rear yards off and make a new lot.

Outcome: He had 4 houses renting for almost the same and a 1500m2 development site with road access for free. Of course, he had to fund the purchases and holding costs.

Now we were going to develop it but it was 2003 and the market in Sydney was overheating big time. I did the numbers and said RISKY! He was keen. I was get approval and see. We did for 5 townhouses and decided to sell it. Sold for $1.8M.

He was " we screwed our selves, so much more to be made". I said "no the market is stupid, it has to stop" It did stop.....they market crashed into oversupply and no one was buying any more.

The builder/purchaser was lucky to break even, but probably lost $$. We would have lost $$$$.

Lesson $1.8M safe money better than dream of being the builder.

Peter

 

[nhg]

Speaking of anecdotal stories:

There is/was a guy in Western Sydney who owned a real estate agency and a construction company.

He would sell you the land.
Develop it for you.
Then sell the developments.

He tried to convince me the land was worth $100k per house base. I disagreed and said $50k as he hadn't included a lot of costs such as interest. He treated me as a fool for saying so. I saw at least 5+ developments of 4 houses in a 6 month period with his banner on it.

Now... who do you think made money in that transaction? Playing builder/developer is different to BEING a builder/developer. And sometimes the guy who makes the most is neither.

 

[Scott No Mates]

I have seen plenty of instances where a non-building/design/property educated person has stuffed up big time by not understanding what was going on.

Screwed by the selling agent to take on projects, then by the builders through varys and again by the liquidator. I've walked away from projects which have suffered from poor design or construction.

So I would advocate for getting a basic understanding of the people, project and planning.

"Construction is easy, people make it difficult" - yr 1 lecturer @ NSWIT now UTS.

 

[scientist]

+1 Orks.

The trick is to be born Italian or Greek or Chinese then you learn in the family business.

Us Anglos are disadvantaged

Peter

I'm Chinese, all we do is study hard and become shitkickers at big banks / accountancy / law firms in the city aspiring to make it to executive / partner level but knowing we never will because we're not anglo.