Should I must pay an invoice ?

[snowwhite]

Hey everyone,
I want ask a question but not about the house .
I just had the unexpected surprise of receiving a 2000 AUD invoice from a Solicitor and I am not sure how I should act. Few months ago,I have asked a relative who is a Solicitor to help me understanding an employment contract that I've received from a NSW company.And this solicitor ,it's not stranger to me ,she is my brother's sister-in-law.
so I was just asking him as a personal fever,I just asked her if she'd happy to look at my contract,which I did through email.Again,I received a positive answer from her and she asked to see my contract proposal and to receive my questions in writing.All that was nice and gentle and we never even discuss cost for service in any sort.A couple of phone calls later and very few emails later,I've made my decision to accept the proposed role and took my new job ,and thoroughly thanked my relative for her help.Few weeks after,a letter arrived from her law office (without any attached explanation or email)presenting and invoice of 2000 AUD for "Employment Contract Advice" without any breakdown detail...By the way,this letter has been sent to my previous previous address(2 houses ago!)and I really wonder how it finally ended into my hands.So should I pay this invoice ? Or can I just ignore it ?
I have not tell my brother or anyone in the family that I received this invoice .
Thank you for any advice.With best regards,

 

[andrew_de_a]

I could be wrong but when I have used the services of a solicitor I have always had to fill out an form consenting them to undertake work and detailing costs. Not sure if this is the norm though.

 

[coastymike]

Yes a few things

1. ask to see the disclosure of costs agreement. In NSW Practitioners must disclose to clients the basis of the costs of legal services to be provided to the client by the practitioner: Legal Profession Act 1987, s 175(1). Section 175(2) requires disclosure of:

- the amount of the costs, if known;
- if the amount of the costs is not known, the basis of calculating the costs;
the billing arrangements;
- the client's rights under Division 6 in relation to a review of costs;
- the client's rights under Division 4 to receive a bill of costs; and
- any other matter required to be disclosed by the regulations.

2. talk to solicitor (friend) and ask where you indicated that you would be charged for the service and any correspondence indicating acceptance of such charges.

3. Ask to receive a bill of costs.

4. Indicate if you feel this was for free that you were under the impression this was the case, have not signed a costs agreement or engagement letter and costs have never been discussed. If necessary you can report to the NSW Law Society for review.

5. if no luck then ask for costs to be independently assessed and put aside. Report to law society for possible breach of Act.

p.s. noticed you were in WA so those societies rules apply.

 

[marg4000]

Why not contact the friend/solicitor and have a chat?

It appears that you were at cross purposes - you thought you were asking a friend for advice, friend believed you were consulting her.

A timely lesson - if you ask a professional for advice be very clear as to the charging situation. I have heard of doctors billing people for questions asked at a social function.

You mention "a couple of phone calls and a few emails" after you gave her the contract (which she would have read carefully), which indicates she put a bit of time into this and therefore deserves some payment. If she did the work at her office then payment will definitely be necessary as solicitors bill their time in very short increments and she has to fill in worksheets showing which file she was working on at any one time.

Whether the $2,000 is fair or not can be decided after you see a breakdown of costs. But from the way solicitors charge, it seems within reasonable limits to me.

Whatever you do, don't just ignore the invoice.

Otherwise you may find yourself with further charges.
Marg

 

[snowwhite]

Yes a few things

1. ask to see the disclosure of costs agreement. In NSW Practitioners must disclose to clients the basis of the costs of legal services to be provided to the client by the practitioner: Legal Profession Act 1987, s 175(1). Section 175(2) requires disclosure of:

- the amount of the costs, if known;
- if the amount of the costs is not known, the basis of calculating the costs;
the billing arrangements;
- the client's rights under Division 6 in relation to a review of costs;
- the client's rights under Division 4 to receive a bill of costs; and
- any other matter required to be disclosed by the regulations.

2. talk to solicitor (friend) and ask where you indicated that you would be charged for the service and any correspondence indicating acceptance of such charges.

3. Ask to receive a bill of costs.

4. Indicate if you feel this was for free that you were under the impression this was the case, have not signed a costs agreement or engagement letter and costs have never been discussed. If necessary you can report to the NSW Law Society for review.

5. if no luck then ask for costs to be independently assessed and put aside. Report to law society for possible breach of Act.

p.s. noticed you were in WA so those societies rules apply.

Hi,
Thanks for your answer.
I am in WA,but the solicitor,they are in NSW.
I have never received any disclosure of costs agreement beofore I receive this invoice .
So I guess I donot have to pay this invoice ,so I just ignor it ?

 

[snowwhite]

The solicitor never ask me any fees or never discuss the fee with me .
And I just received a invoice without any notice by post 1-2months later after our last contact .
All they did is few phone call and couple emails to me ,and pointed out few place I could be concern about the contract,but basicaly didnot change anything for me of this contract .And never had discuss about fees with me .

 

[weg]

I think the solicitor should have discussed fees with you prior to doing this work however I don't know the legalities of their obligation regarding this.

I see how you might have thought this was free but I also see how she might not have considered that you would think this as she would have many people on her very distant friends, relatives and associates list.

Talk to your brother and ask him what he thinks you should do as he would know her well.

Hope all works out well.

 

[Terryw]

You can't just ignore a problem like this or you could get a default judgment against you. It is best to write to the lawyer, nicely, and state you thought this was a freebie. If the lawyer disputes this then ask about the costs agreement or the lack of one. Maybe refer her to s309 of the LPA
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/lpa2004179/s309.html

 

[redsquash]

it seems foolhardy for a solicitor to expect payment of $2,000 without making it clear that the service required payment.

Does anybody in their right mind perform such tasks without even mentioning payment?

This seems to be payment by stealth .
Do exactly what coasty mike has suggested.

 

[Perp]

Why not contact the friend/solicitor and have a chat?

It appears that you were at cross purposes - you thought you were asking a friend for advice, friend believed you were consulting her.

You mention "a couple of phone calls and a few emails" after you gave her the contract (which she would have read carefully), which indicates she put a bit of time into this and therefore deserves some payment.

I'm with marg4000. You seem to have the view of "she's a friend therefore I expected formalities to be put aside and that I wouldn't have to pay". Putting the shoe on the other foot, the lawyer friend may be thinking "she's a friend therefore she doesn't want the costs agreement formalities and trusts that my fees will be reasonable for the effort expended". She may also have been thinking "wow, how nice of my SIL to allow me to bring some business into the firm", anticipating that you expected to pay for this service, anyway, so you may as well direct the work to somebody you know. That would be perfectly reasonable of her to assume, IMHO, though I agree that she should still have done up a costs agreement if this was her position.

The disconnect seems to be that you, snowwhite, don't value the friend's expertise as highly as the market does. I suspect that their normal charge for the service offered - of reviewing your employment contract and responding to a few emails and phone calls - would normally be more, and you've gotten "mate's rates" and "only" been charged $2K. But as you were expecting it to be a freebie, and obviously don't realise just how much lawyers charge, and thus you think they've taken advantage of you.

The whole thing could, and should, be sorted out with some clear and honest communication. In any case, please don't let this become the source of family discord, which it will if you just ignore the invoice.

Contact your SIL and explain that you were a bit surprised to receive an invoice because you had understood that this was being done as a favour. She might explain to you that they would normally charge, say, $3K for the time she expended, but has been able to reduce the price to $2K for you. If this is the case, I think that to preserve family harmony and show good faith, you should pay the $2K. (I'm talking about from an ethical and family harmony perspective, which I think should be your perspective, not a legal perspective.)

If she hadn't realised that you were expecting a freebie and thought you were doing her a favour by directing business to her firm, perhaps she will be willing to reduce the bill a little in recognition of the breakdown in communication.

Whatever you do, don't ignore it, and don't assume that they're trying to "rip you off".

 

[JamesGG]

Hi,
Thanks for your answer.
(snip)
So I guess I donot have to pay this invoice ,so I just ignor it ?

Coasty offered five steps for the recommended course of action.. None of which were 'just ignore it'.

Perp also made some good points, above.

It seems that a lack of communication is what caused the problem in the first place. I'd expect that continuing that trend would only lead to further problems, as well.

 

[wylie]

You had a recent "win" with your recent purchase when you requested the vendor to fix things they had no obligation to fix.

Life and investing is swings and roundabouts. You win some and you lose some. I don't know about your obligation to pay this account, but this might be counterbalancing the previous "win" .

 

[skater]

It seems you are caught between a rock and a hard place. You really need to talk to her and clear things up.

Also, from what you have said, this person did put a considerable amount of time into it. They made contact several times through phone and email. To me, this indicates that a billable service has been made. I do agree that the amount seems to be steep, but then again, I'm not a lawyer, so what would I know. It is completely different to asking a casual question at a dinner party that can be answered in a few minutes.

The other thing that springs to mind is that if you are in WA and she is in NSW and she is not a close relative to you, she is probably not someone you meet on many occasions. I don't understand why you would expect that she would not charge professional fees for a service provided.

For example, I know the BIL of my SIL works as a vet near me. I use his services, not because he is a distant relative, but because he provides a good service. I have never expected to NOT pay for the service.

Don't ignore it. That will only make things worse.

FWIW, you have just learnt the lesson "I must pay for legal advice".

 

[willfong]

If your friends/relatives have a store that sell physical goods, you wouldn't take $2000 worth of goods from them and simply thank them and expect them not to bill you right? Lawyers (and other similar professionals) earn their living through selling their expert knowledge and time. Same deal, you shouldn't expect it to be free.

If it were just a quick (few minutes) casual q & a over dinner as Skater mentioned above then fair enough, but it sounds like she has put a fair bit of time and effort into this. Expecting it for free is saying that you think their time and profession are worthless.

Having said that, it does seem that there had been some poor communications from both sides. Considering you interpret coastymike's helpful five points response as you can just ignore the bill, I am not surprised with the communication breakdown.

+1 to "you have just learnt the lesson I must pay for legal advice". Ask for cost breakdown and perhaps your SIL to put in a good word for discount if you will, but don't just ignore it and make it become a bigger family problem down the track.

 

[Perp]

Considering you interpret coastymike's helpful five points response as you can just ignore the bill, I am not surprised with the communication breakdown.

Yes, that was an interesting interpretation, wasn't it?

But hey, what would we know? Apparently we all gave snowwhite the "wrong" advice last time.

 

[Terryw]

You are forgetting that solicitors must enter into a cost agreement with clients before commencing work on a matter.

 

[Perp]

You are forgetting that solicitors must enter into a cost agreement with clients before commencing work on a matter.

I'm not forgetting it, I just made it clear that I was talking from an ethical and family harmony perspective, rather than a legal perspective.

 

[Terryw]

rightyo then

 

[tom32]

I am talking right / wrong not regulation around legal fees:

If you asked this same distant relation who was say a bricklayer to lay bricks for you would you pay then? I know I would not expect the service for free. If they were close even then I would be buying them a pretty sweet gift for the service. What did you buy your friend in this case for their help? With all due respect if the answer is nothing then I would have done the same as your friend and a few months down the line when it became apparent you clearly had no appreciation for what I had done tracked you down and invoiced you.

While yes there are special pre conditions for lawyers, in the normal case of services rendered without an agreed pricce, i.e. if you ask someone to do work for you and do not agree a price they can charge you whats fair for the work. The reason for this is because it is fair! They have given you a service you requested i.e. it was not unsolicited help, why should you not pay for it.

A second important question as to whether your relation is being fair is the job you were going for. If your contract had provisions for deferred remuneration perhaps supplementary agreements with international parent companies etc then you were going to have to get a lawyer to take a look anyway so why shouldn't this one charge you? After all it is likely you are getting remunerated better than this lawyer is anyway in this case. If you were going for a job as the local swimming teacher than your friend is taking the **** and should have just given you the OK after giving it a brief once over.

Also ask yourself if you are stung under this contract will you seek damages from your friend? Easy to say no'straight up but lets say you really got stung badly, say you got sent overseas under employment became paralysed and found out you were not insured while outside Australia and in fact were not working for an Australian company and you were employed under another nationality? Maybe the employment contract had you indemnify your employer in this event and not being an Australian contract and not working in Australia this might be allowed as a valid term. If it was me in this situation I would claim for damages but for the same reasons I would claim I would also expect to pay for the service rendered.

Lastly on the question of whether you should pay (not legally just on whats right grounds) is how you conducted yourself in the email correspondence. If this person gave you some advice straight up after a once over and you came back with detailed questions than again you really are starting to request more than free off the cuff advice seeing that this is only a very distant relation.

 

[Bigtone]

doesn't want to pay the bill but if there was a mistake in the advice or something overlooked she would probably sue her for negligence!

happy to use the advice to make a big life decision in accepting a new job and seek extra clarification through god knows how many calls and emails yet not expecting to pay anything?

fair enough people can put a different value on their own time that is their own prerogative as bobby brown would say, a mate of mine spent 10 hours spread sheeting courier costs between 15 companies ie pickup fees. cost per km etc to save $80, personally i would rather poke my eyes out with a knife than do that. However a pet hate of mine is when people don't value other peoples time, particularly relevant in certain cultures such as the one that appears to be at play here. People whose first question is "is it free" should be avoided at all costs unless you want the blood sucked straight out of your veins!!!

i had an employee who spent 4 "working" hours fighting a 2.75 interest charge on her credit card with the bank, happy to spend all her time doing that and no thought to the fact that I was paying her $25 an hour to save her the injustice of 2.75?