SMSF 100k startup too risky?

Shocking isn't it, looking at a couple of indexes the ASX looks like it went up by about 17% over the FY, US by about 40% and the rest of the world (ex US) by about 24%

If it wasn't for the extent we've just gone long in the Property market , that looks like a good reason to go long in the ASX . That and the observation that the US in record highs and we're well of that short of that ...

Seem to remember a similar situation a few years ago and then the ASX caught up.

Cliff
 
If it wasn't for the extent we've just gone long in the Property market , that looks like a good reason to go long in the ASX . That and the observation that the US in record highs and we're well of that short of that ...

Seem to remember a similar situation a few years ago and then the ASX caught up.

Cliff

From what I've been reading, the All Ords index (XAO) has been in a sideways pattern for the last 5 years or so, but has been testing 5 year highs in recent months and may breakout from this - when is anyone's guess though...
 
From what I've been reading, the All Ords index (XAO) has been in a sideways pattern for the last 5 years or so, but has been testing 5 year highs in recent months and may breakout from this - when is anyone's guess though...

The one think I like about shares compared to property is you can get in with smaller amounts and it's scalable . But IMHO the property market is easier to read and predict in terms of direction.

Given the recent build up in overall confidence globally so in terms of emotional fundamentals , I think we're closer to a breakout .....

Cliff
 
Hi all,

Not sure if this section is the right one to put up this thread redarding SMSF.

I?ve recently checked my super balance and it is approaching $100k by the end of this year. As I?m like many others, would rather control this money under my own hand instead of relying super company to manage, I am exploring SMSF with particular interest in p
IP. I?ve read through numbers of dicussion in this forum regarding this topic, just want to see what forum members? thought about the risk for my case.

I am now 40 years of age, defacto relationship with my partner. Monthly company pays about $640 into my super. I am thinking of Ip for $400k, something like a 2 bedroom unit in Victoria. Is anyone sekf manage your super for ip with super balance if $100k? Is it a do-able thing or should wait until I reach a larger savingbin super?

Hope to hear your thinking/advice/sharing.


Thanks in advance


Lamp

Hi Lamp,

For any investment, I'd suggest that the first risk to quantify is the one you as a person introduce to the investment equation. How knowledgeable, capable, willing to do, willing to learn, willing to follow up, etc. etc. you are?

BTW, I have seen people (with much less in Super than you) successfully investing in RE through their SMSF.

Cheers!
 
From what I've been reading, the All Ords index (XAO) has been in a sideways pattern for the last 5 years or so, but has been testing 5 year highs in recent months and may breakout from this - when is anyone's guess though...

Re the aforementioned indexes the ASX 200 has done well over the last 3 months
 
Hi all,

Not sure if this section is the right one to put up this thread redarding SMSF.

I?ve recently checked my super balance and it is approaching $100k by the end of this year. As I?m like many others, would rather control this money under my own hand instead of relying super company to manage, I am exploring SMSF with particular interest in p
IP. I?ve read through numbers of dicussion in this forum regarding this topic, just want to see what forum members? thought about the risk for my case.

I am now 40 years of age, defacto relationship with my partner. Monthly company pays about $640 into my super. I am thinking of Ip for $400k, something like a 2 bedroom unit in Victoria. Is anyone sekf manage your super for ip with super balance if $100k? Is it a do-able thing or should wait until I reach a larger savingbin super?

Hope to hear your thinking/advice/sharing.


Thanks in advance


Lamp

Conventional wisdom is that a balance of 200K is about the right amount to establish an SMSF... with 150K being considered the bare minimum required. With 100K of combined Super, you'd be putting all your eggs in one basket by purchasing a property, with no room left to do anything else. Planners and or Accountants will STRONGLY advise you against a strategy that doesn't allow for any diversification.

I get this question a LOT from clients, and I always recommend they seek the advice of a financial planning or accounting professional , because whilst I may think 100K is too little, it's not my place to offer that advice. Inevitably, in every case the "advice" about 150-200K above, is exactly what they receive.
 
Hi Lamp,

BTW, I have seen people (with much less in Super than you) successfully investing in RE through their SMSF.

Cheers!

Any planner signing off on a Statement Of Advice and Investment Strategy involving residential property investment for a newly established SMSF with less than 100K in available funds, would have a VERY tough time satisfying ASIC they are offering adequate and responsible advice. A fund with a balance that low would have no way of demonstrating any form of diversification.

On a separate note - Watch this space - several banks are about to change rules for SMSF Limited recourse lending , to require a minimum balance of 150K and to require that proposed properties must be at least 2 years old. This will simply be in response to ASIC's concerns that there is an industry starting to be built around trying to encourage too many SMSF's to be set up with insufficient balances, solely for the purpose of investing in resi property ... Not sure the 2 year old property rule will get up, but I'm told by several knowledgeable people that most the banks will be requiring 150K minimum balances very soon... or it may never happen. But an SMSF with less than 100K investing in resi property= bad advice and dangerous ground
 
Indexes are not funds but an analysis of the market overall ie depending upon what is in your fund will determine the results and whether or not you've beaten the index.

My industry fund is up > 20% for the year - pretty hard to beat.
 
The one think I like about shares compared to property is you can get in with smaller amounts and it's scalable . But IMHO the property market is easier to read and predict in terms of direction.

Given the recent build up in overall confidence globally so in terms of emotional fundamentals , I think we're closer to a breakout .....

Cliff

The All Ords Accumulation index (XAOA) has passed it's 2007 high now.
 
my super returned a 23% ending June 2013. its probably one of the best year pre or post GFC. Havnet looked into details, but stretch this to a 10 year, would probably be a single digit % annual growth...

on a $100K super investment, this gives me $23k.

on a smsf invested geared in a $400K (using the $100k for a deposit+stamp duty+ set up fees), a moderate 6% growth would equate a to a $23k ROI, assuming rental covers interest rate.

on a smsf/super of $100k geared to $400k to buy shares direct/managed funds, some ( including myself) consider a higher risk investment, compared to 80 % LVR on a investment property.


that's just my opinion, and the reason for setting up a smsf to purchase a property
 
Who cares what you have in your smsf

Some people could make it work with far less than 100k. You just have to realise that you won't be buying blue chip and have an understanding of how the numbers work. Cash flow is king in smsf property.
After you take into account the leverage factor all you really should be aimung for in a smsf is to pay the thing off with minimal out of pocket costs

As for diversification .....
So if property goes up then its a result of? A good economy, people making money from their jobs and share gains
If property go's down its a result of? A crap economy , people losing money from job cuts and a bad share market

In my mind there is no point in diversifying into other asset classes other than property and I guess cash. Because show me an example of when housing has crashed when shares have been booming.
Property wins because it is safe leverage
 
Who cares what you have in your smsf

Some people could make it work with far less than 100k. You just have to realise that you won't be buying blue chip and have an understanding of how the numbers work. Cash flow is king in smsf property.
After you take into account the leverage factor all you really should be aimung for in a smsf is to pay the thing off with minimal out of pocket costs

As for diversification .....
So if property goes up then its a result of? A good economy, people making money from their jobs and share gains
If property go's down its a result of? A crap economy , people losing money from job cuts and a bad share market

In my mind there is no point in diversifying into other asset classes other than property and I guess cash. Because show me an example of when housing has crashed when shares have been booming.
Property wins because it is safe leverage

This is all true, yes- but you aren't accounting for the role the planner will play in influencing most SMSF's investment strategies. It is the planner who will be pushing the diversification barrow. It is the planner who will likely be pushing the anti property barrow. It is the planner who will be looking to"sell" a product from their deal group's approved product list, rather than encouraging property. Believe me when I tell you this :) I run an NRAS business, which is far and away the king of all "cashflow is king" property opportunities, I have more than 250 financial planners signed up as referral partners, and the majority just DO NOT EVER encourage, introduce or even discuss resi investment property with their clients. They are an incredibly conservative bunch, and the culture within the planning industry is very very simple ; very few of them will discuss or recommend anything outside their dealer groups approved product lists, unless they go and obtain their own PI insurance, and that all equates to a massive, massive roadblock for SMSF's and resi property. Dont believe me? Take a close look at the data - the ATO publishes it every quarter , so you can check SMSF asset allocations in 5 seconds online. You'll come to ask yourself a very simple question; why oh why, in spite of the MASSIVE ramp up in newly established SMSF's in recent years, and all the rhetoric around SMSF's gearing into property, has the number of them that actually invest in resi property grown from 2.82% to 3.43% since amendments to the SIS Act in 2007? If 134,000 new SMSF's have been established since 2007, why have only 7,000 new investment properties been purchased by those 134,000 SMSF's in the last 7 years?


June 2008. 375,657 SMSF's 10,631 invested in resi property - 2.83%
June 2013. 509,362 SMSF's 17,509 invested in resi property - 3.43%

http://www.ato.gov.au/About-ATO/Research-and-statistics/In-detail/Super-statistics/SMSF/Self-managed-super-fund-statistical-report---June-2013/?default=&page=2#Asset_allocation_tables_%28$m%29


Can someone with 100K invest in resi property? yes, technically and mathematically it's do-able. Will their planner encourage it? Nooooo. Will their planner actively discourage it? Very very likely.
If you were to push on, in spite of your planners objections, and put 100K into a resi property, what can you really afford to buy and what quality of asset is it likely to be.... hmmm. Hard to say.

Anyway, all I'm trying to demonstrate is... 100K is really really pushing it. Doable ? yes. Sensible? the property would have to be quite a find, and very inexpensive, to put every egg in one basket like that.
 
1. My FP does suggest property. I pay him a fee for service, and he gets no commission for any products he sells.
2. If your super fund is not performing- mine did 1% in the last 12 months when the stock market was up 25%- then perhaps you are better off with an smsf and paying the fees- even if you just dump it in an index fund. And an NRAS property is likely to have performed better than that with cap gain.
 
There are no longer any commissions available for planners. Banned since July 1 this year.

Property is not a financial product so planners should be able to recommend property even it is it not on the authorised innvestments list of their licence holder. I guess it will take a while for the majority to slowly warm to property after they have been keeping clients away from it for so long. In fact, now property may be one of the ways planners could get a commission.
 
Some comments about diversification .

Outside approaching it from a , I'm going to put 30 % in x , 30 % in y and 40 % in z , There are times when one asset class would appear to offer particularly good value and buy in that asset . so rather than diversifying at one specific point in time , diversify over time.

That's making the assumption you have the ability to do that.......

If someone has a particular interest or expertise in one area ( what ever that area is ) why shouldn't someone bias their SMSF towards that outside the observation that It's probably easier to become competent in one area rather than several .

Cliff
 
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