Tenant Lied on Application form!!!

[DEC]

If you only have a policy that only covers malicious damage then it certainly won't. Get a decent landlord insurance policy that includes Accidental Damage and it's a different matter altogether. The reality is there are far more circumstances that will be classified as "accidental" than "malicious", so you should be protected correctly.

My insurance covers accidental damage but every time I have tried to claim they say that dings and scrapes on the internal walls, stains in the carpets, gouges in the flooring and benchtops is all wear and tear* so not covered.
Even though the property is only a few years old and in good condition when tenants moved in.

Its a scam.

* One of the insured events they wont cover .

 

[brettc]

My insurance covers accidental damage but every time I have tried to claim they say that dings and scrapes on the internal walls, stains in the carpets, gouges in the flooring and benchtops is all wear and tear* so not covered.
Even though the property is only a few years old and in good condition when tenants moved in.

Its a scam.

* One of the insured events they wont cover .

It's not an "insured event" they won't cover (whoever "they" are) as "wear and tear" is not an insured event. If wear and tear was an insured event the premium would be so ridiculously high that no-one would ever take out insurance. I as many people own my own home and accept that 3 years on it is not still going to look the same, there will be scratches and marks and maybe some stains on the on the carpet. These people are living in the property the same as an owner-occupier lives in their property, and owner-occupiers accept these things as wear and tear, and most people would never consider expecting an insurance company to pay to repair them, or to essentially renovate their home.

Liken it to car insurance, if you spill a drink on the carpet in your car do you automatically claim it on your insurance?

That said, there are an imeasurable number of circumstances that can fall under accidental damage (although I can't speak in regard to the specific policy you have, only of ours).

Genuine accidental damage claims can certainly include carpet stains, we pay plenty of them, an example may be after a party that may have ruined the carpet, but also where we have had people bring motor bikes inside and dripped oil all over the carpet. But an individual stain (although may technically be claimable) is likely not to be worth more than the excess on the policy.

Most accidental damage sections will require an "event" to occur, not just a build up of a range of minor issues that have occured over time. It's not a "scam", it's a case of understanding the policy and not having unrealistic expectations.

Landlords (of which I am one as well) can't expect to get a property back in the exact same condition years down the track, wear and tear will occur no matter who lives in it.

If you believe you are being hard done by, go via the companies complaints process, which can end up with the insurance ombudsman. If you have a legitimate claim it should be paid, there is no question about that.

 

[Jen_PFR]

Keeping a horse in the third bedroom is a bigger problem me thinks LOL

I don't know.... surely it depends on the horse's capacity to pay his share of the rent, as well?

 

[DEC]

I as many people own my own home and accept that 3 years on it is not still going to look the same, there will be scratches and marks and maybe some stains on the on the carpet.

As I said, place was fine after previous tenants had been there for 2 years and 6 mths but when new tenants gave it back after only 6 mths the carpet had deteriorated rapidly and the walls are now gouged considerably as if they had let their child ride a bike inside smacking into every wall and then on vacate, bashed there furniture through every door surround knocking off paint.

Fair wear and tear says the insurer (westpac).

I expect some sign of living in but I would expect it to be in line with other properties purchased in the same time frame.
A house should not need new paint and carpet after 3 years.

These people are living in the property the same as an owner-occupier lives in their property, and owner-occupiers accept these things as wear and tear, and most people would never consider expecting an insurance company to pay to repair them, or to essentially renovate their home.

Yes I understand that but the house was fine after 2 and a half years and not in the last 6 mths.
I have lived in my own place for 15 years and my walls arent this badly marked, no where near it and the carpets while worn are not badly stained.

I have other ips that I have had for ten plus years and these also have been left in better condition than this place.
Defend the tenant and insurer all you like but they are both neglecting their obligation in my opinion.

 

[geoffw]

I don't know.... surely it depends on the horse's capacity to pay his share of the rent, as well?

Many of us have already had to take a lot of crap from tenants...

 

[brettc]

My insurance covers accidental damage but every time I have tried to claim they say that dings and scrapes on the internal walls, stains in the carpets, gouges in the flooring and benchtops is all wear and tear* so not covered.

Hi Dec

In another post you have said the Insurer is Westpac. I'm certainly no expert on Westpac policies so I'd be interested in seeing the PDS for the policy you have. From a quick look on their website they appear to have a policy they call "Landlord Building and Contents Insurance" - is this the one?

From a quick look at th PDS I see no reference to it including Accidental Damage, apart from "accidental breakage of glass".

Under the "Optional Landlord Extras Cover" it includes Malicious Acts by Tenants, as well as Theft by Tenants, Rent Default, Denial of Access by government authority and Legal Expenses. It specifically says (under Malicious Acts):

Loss or damage occurring during the period of insurance that is caused by malicious acts by your tenants. Malicious acts do not include damage caused by accident or wear and tear.

Do you have a different policy as this would appear to clearly NOT cover Accidental Damage so to be honest, for the damage you are describing, even if not classed as wear and tear, it would certainly not be classified as malicious and would not be claimable. Unless of course this is not the policy you have, which may be the case.

I'm not having a go but (unless you have a different Westpac policy) it may not cover accidental damage at all (many policies don't, in particular those from the banks and major insurers).

 

[Luv2Travel]

In another post you have said the Insurer is Westpac. I'm certainly no expert on Westpac policies so I'd be interested in seeing the PDS for the policy you have. From a quick look on their website they appear to have a policy they call "Landlord Building and Contents Insurance" - is this the one?

From a quick look at th PDS I see no reference to it including Accidental Damage, apart from "accidental breakage of glass".

From my experience, they don't! Good luck getting a cent of "non malicious" (which is just about everything) damage from them.

 

[DEC]

Hi Dec

In another post you have said the Insurer is Westpac. I'm certainly no expert on Westpac policies so I'd be interested in seeing the PDS for the policy you have. From a quick look on their website they appear to have a policy they call "Landlord Building and Contents Insurance" - is this the one?

From a quick look at th PDS I see no reference to it including Accidental Damage, apart from "accidental breakage of glass".

Thats their NEW policy wording from Sept 2013 thanks for bringing it to my attention looks like they are definitely not getting renewed.

Last years pds had

-Accidental breakage of glass........................................20
-Electrical motor burnout...............................................21
-Accidental loss or damage............................................22

to page 22

We will cover
You at the site against accidental loss or damage.
We will also cover your contents while temporarily removed
elsewhere in Australia.
If loss or damage is caused by any other insured event,
you must claim under that section of the policy.
If loss or damage is not caused by any other insured event,
we will also insure you if the loss or damage
is accidental.
The following exclusions under insured event ?Accidental
breakage of glass? are covered under this section of the
policy. We will cover you for loss and damage to:
? television screens or screens on visual display units
? vases, ornaments and cooking surfaces of
any description
? parts of television, radio or other electronic devices
that are made of glass
? glass that is normally carried by hand
? glass that is part of a cooktop.
This section does not apply whenever the home
becomes tenanted.

We won?t cover
? any loss or damage excluded under ?General exclusions?
(see page 13)
? any loss or damage excluded under any ?insured events?
unless shown as covered in this section
? electrical, mechanical or computer breakdown, failure or
derangement other than electrical motor burnout
? loss or damage to glass in a glasshouse or conservatory
? sporting equipment (other than bicycles) damaged
while in use
? damage to bicycles while training for or participating in
any organised or competitive sporting activity or race,
but we will cover damage happening during general
recreation activities (eg. cycling to work, or children
cycling for fun)
? photographic equipment while in use underwater
? loss or damage to contents:
? stored in any commercial storage facility or sale rooms
? as part of a household removal
? permanently removed from the home or site except for
the first 14 days.
? loss or damage caused by:
? tree roots
? landslide, subsidence, erosion or any earth movement
(other than earthquake)
? hydrostatic pressure
? poor maintenance
? rain entering the home while construction work,
alterations or additions are being carried out
? any process of professional cleaning, repairing,
restoring, servicing or renovation.

Definition is

Accidental loss or damage ? loss or damage caused by
an accident.

But, according to them, gouged walls, floors ,benchtops and stained carpets are not an accident.
They are not malicious
They are apparently wear and tear

It's not a "scam", it's a case of understanding the policy and not having unrealistic expectations.

Do you still stand by your claim that I haven't understood the policy or had unrealistic expectations?

Add: all question marks in quoted sections were dots on the PDS.

 

[brahms]

I don't know.... surely it depends on the horse's capacity to pay his share of the rent, as well?

you are correct of course, my wrist has been slapped by the equal opportunities anti discrimination ombudsman

 

[brettc]

Thats their NEW policy wording from Sept 2013 thanks for bringing it to my attention looks like they are definitely not getting renewed.

Do you still stand by your claim that I haven't understood the policy or had unrealistic expectations?

Page 22 in reference to Accidental Damage, it says "This section does not apply whenever the home becomes tenanted."

I may be wrong, but I don't think Accidental Damage applies from what I can see.

 

[TMNT]

I don't know.... surely it depends on the horse's capacity to pay his share of the rent, as well?

I wouldn't mind living with Sarah Jessica Parker

 

[DEC]

Page 22 in reference to Accidental Damage, it says "This section does not apply whenever the home becomes tenanted."

I may be wrong, but I don't think Accidental Damage applies from what I can see.

yes, you may be wrong.

I took it to mean that comment referred to that section

One section of page 22

We will cover
You at the site against accidental loss or damage.
We will also cover your contents while temporarily removed
elsewhere in Australia.
If loss or damage is caused by any other insured event,
you must claim under that section of the policy.
If loss or damage is not caused by any other insured event,
we will also insure you if the loss or damage
is accidental.

The other section of page 22 which I belive the comment refers to - wording highlighted in red.

The following exclusions under insured event ?Accidental
breakage of glass? are covered under this section of the
policy. We will cover you for loss and damage to:
? television screens or screens on visual display units
? vases, ornaments and cooking surfaces of
any description
? parts of television, radio or other electronic devices
that are made of glass
? glass that is normally carried by hand
? glass that is part of a cooktop.
This section does not apply whenever the home
becomes tenanted.

Incidentally, new invoices for my policies came through last night. Prices have risen a few hundred dollars on each and some of the wording has been changed as shown above (post 46).
Getting near the stage where I could consider self insuring.

 

[brettc]

yes, you may be wrong.

I took it to mean that comment referred to that section

As they have now changed the policy anyway I guess it becomes a moot point, but I ran it past one of our brokers for clarification. His reading of it is that the policy is essentially an owner-occupiers cover (with the option to add landlord benefits such as malicious acts and theft by tenants etc.) and the entire section titled "Accidental loss or damage" is not applicable if the property is tenanted.

He was quite sure that you need to take that reference in regard to the whole section, not just pick out one part of it and assume it only refers to that part.

The optional landlord benefits you can take would give you cover for malicious damage by tenants, but not accidental.

He suggested a discussion directly with the Insurer should clarify it at any rate, but said that to him it is one of the strongest reasons that landlords should be selecting dedicated landlord policies rather than what are essentially household policies with some add-on's, they generally just don't stack up.

 

[Sez]

His reading of it is that the policy is essentially an owner-occupiers cover (with the option to add landlord benefits such as malicious acts and theft by tenants etc.) and the entire section titled "Accidental loss or damage" is not applicable if the property is tenanted.

This is why when my Landlords ask I always point them toward a specialised insurance

 

[DEC]

He suggested a discussion directly with the Insurer should clarify it at any rate,

Which it has - no longer covered so after a new policy I think.

but said that to him it is one of the strongest reasons that landlords should be selecting dedicated landlord policies rather than what are essentially household policies with some add-on's, they generally just don't stack up.

Looks at front of PDS and in big bold letters it says
Landlord
Insurance
Product Disclosure Statement

Looking at ebm and terri scheer again now

 

[brettc]

Looks at front of PDS and in big bold letters it says
Landlord
Insurance
Product Disclosure Statement

I appreciate that's what it says, but unfortunately so many of these direct insurer policies are just not specific enough for the property management industry. I avoided using the term "glorified household policies".

 

[Luv2Travel]

The optional landlord benefits you can take would give you cover for malicious damage by tenants, but not accidental.

Which is exactly what happened to me, Westpac outright told me they only cover malicious damage, and that is near impossible to claim so basically it's useless. That makes sense what you're saying about the policy with the landlord insurance just being an addon. The policy is just one big messy ambiguous one which is why you only receive one invoice. I would definitely change to something that has it's own standalone landlord insurance which covers both malicious and accidental so it only relates to tenants. The Westpac policy has SO many outs for them when you actually try to make a claim.