The future of food

[Graingrower]

After discussion in "Australias cheapest farmland" I decided to start a thread about GM crops.

Some of you have weighed in on the food shortages and skyrocketing prices angle. Definitely a huge concern but I very much doubt that Monsanto GM crops will solve this problem. We need to support the smaller farmers and locally grown food, something that Monsanto has a record of NOT doing. Read this article:

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/05/monsanto200805

Cheers

You have raised two issues that I feel strongly about.

Issue 1. I read the first 3 pages of that article and I can't find one argument that is specific to GM crops. 'Seed patents' under other names such as 'plant breeders rights' apply to most crops that farmers grow today. Legal battles between large companies and individuals are nothing new. Please quote one argument in that article that applies only to GM crops.

Issue 2. As for supporting small farmers locally growing food: If we grew food the same way we did 150 years ago the cost of production would be several times what todays value of that food is. These efficiency gains have come about from an increase in scale and application of technology that just doesn't work on a small scale. I've seen small farmers in Africa being encouraged to apply modern technology on a small scale. It is very difficult to implement and even if successful it would not be competitive with imported or locally produced 'large scale' food. The above comments apply to grain production. As for vegetables, Australian farmers struggle to compete with any vegetable that is labour intensive to grow and/or harvest. I saw a large scale farmer in Kenya with centre pivot irrigated green beans that were grown organically. These beans were hand weeded, etc by 200 locals who were paid approx $1.50/day (better than not being paid to do nothing). After harvest the beans were exported to Europe at a premium as organic beans. This sounds crazy but it makes sense to me. Use the cheap labour to produce gourmet food for rich people and then import cheap food to feed the poor people. Basically grow maybe 1 tonne of beans and trade that for 10 tonne of wheat, (international freight is chicken feed). What these poor countries really need is some industry, they have plenty of labour and the potential to produce consumer goods for western countries.

 

[Magic Bullet]

How can you start a thread about "the future of food" and miss this on page 2 of the article...

Monsanto portrays its move into G.M. seeds as a giant leap for mankind. But out in the American countryside, Monsanto’s no-holds-barred tactics have made it feared and loathed. Like it or not, farmers say, they have fewer and fewer choices in buying seeds.

And controlling the seeds is not some abstraction. Whoever provides the world’s seeds controls the world’s food supply.

I also do not understand what you mean by...

Please quote one argument in that article that applies only to GM crops.

...how about this....

Since the 1980s, Monsanto has become the world leader in genetic modification of seeds and has won 674 biotechnology patents, more than any other company, according to U.S. Department of Agriculture data.

Farmers who buy Monsanto’s patented Roundup Ready seeds are required to sign an agreement promising not to save the seed produced after each harvest for re-planting, or to sell the seed to other farmers. This means that farmers must buy new seed every year. Those increased sales, coupled with ballooning sales of its Roundup weed killer, have been a bonanza for Monsanto.

This radical departure from age-old practice has created turmoil in farm country. Some farmers don’t fully understand that they aren’t supposed to save Monsanto’s seeds for next year’s planting. Others do, but ignore the stipulation rather than throw away a perfectly usable product. Still others say that they don’t use Monsanto’s genetically modified seeds, but seeds have been blown into their fields by wind or deposited by birds. It’s certainly easy for G.M. seeds to get mixed in with traditional varieties when seeds are cleaned by commercial dealers for re-planting. The seeds look identical; only a laboratory analysis can show the difference. Even if a farmer doesn’t buy G.M. seeds and doesn’t want them on his land, it’s a safe bet he’ll get a visit from Monsanto’s seed police if crops grown from G.M. seeds are discovered in his fields.

There is more than a little storm in a tea cup between some "individuals" and "large companies" going on here.

As for your second point, I will address that when I have more time. Gotta go!

Cheers

 

[Aaron Sice]

Monsanto = the most evil and inhuman corporation in the world.

If a neighbour's crop taints yours with their cross pollination, Monsanto will take you to court AND WIN WITH PRECEDNET that you are infringing on their patented seed.

you can either surrender your farm, or we'll let it slide if you sign up to buy your seed from us.

this has been modus operandii in India/Sri Lanka for decades. Now they are in full swing in the USA's midwest.

Colin Barnett has agreed to allow GM crops in WA - this opens the door for Monsanto.

Do you want that sort of crapola here?

 

[charlieandkath]

Monsanto = the most evil and inhuman corporation in the world.

If a neighbour's crop taints yours with their cross pollination, Monsanto will take you to court AND WIN WITH PRECEDNET that you are infringing on their patented seed.

you can either surrender your farm, or we'll let it slide if you sign up to buy your seed from us.

this has been modus operandii in India/Sri Lanka for decades. Now they are in full swing in the USA's midwest.

Colin Barnett has agreed to allow GM crops in WA - this opens the door for Monsanto.

Do you want that sort of crapola here?

It is already here and has been for some time.

 

[prawn_86]

On a more general future of food (not specific to GM), financial speculation is causeing a lot of increases in prices. Hedge funds et al are looking for ways to improve their returns and at the moment commodity plays are the go, at the expense of the worlds poorer population unfortunately

 

[Macca]

Yes, Monsanto certainly play hard ball and are not well liked by my reading.

I really am surprised that the USA has not reined them in like they did with Microsoft a few years ago.

 

[Amadio]

I thought there was some old cocky in NSW or Vic who looked as if he had a GM cropping neighbour and he threatened the opposite: that if any of his crops (which he sells as GM free) were contaminated with GM seeds then he'd take Monsanto and the neighbour to court.

Could be country pub bravado talk of course.

 

[charlieandkath]

I thought there was some old cocky in NSW or Vic who looked as if he had a GM cropping neighbour and he threatened the opposite: that if any of his crops (which he sells as GM free) were contaminated with GM seeds then he'd take Monsanto and the neighbour to court.

Could be country pub bravado talk of course.

There is a case in WA lately that is getting some media attention about the above. Unfortunately do not know too many details.

 

[topcropper]

Monsanto = the most evil and inhuman corporation in the world.

If a neighbour's crop taints yours with their cross pollination, Monsanto will take you to court AND WIN WITH PRECEDNET that you are infringing on their patented seed.

you can either surrender your farm, or we'll let it slide if you sign up to buy your seed from us.

Do you want that sort of crapola here?

You might be a bit confused.

Monsanto have spent billons developing their technologies. If farmers try to grow their crops without paying, then the farmers are crooks. Monsanto have every right to protect their royalty flows.

The famous case your thinking of must be the Percy Schmeiser one. He was a thief. Started growing monsato's roundup ready, bug resistant canola from taking stollen seed. Monsanto's patented genes were discovered in the canola grown on Percy Schmeiser's farm.

Monsant took him to court as you would any other thief.

I know where the most crapolla is coming from.


See ya's.

 

[topcropper]

Yes, Monsanto certainly play hard ball and are not well liked by my reading.

I really am surprised that the USA has not reined them in like they did with Microsoft a few years ago.

Not well liked? Probably not well liked by greeny latte organic hippies.

Monsanto derived GM corn, cotton canola and soybeans are almost completely dominant in the US and Canada, and taking off in other places like South America, China and India. Farmers have to pay up for the right to plant these crops. They are not forced to.

OK. Maybe thats not quite right. They probably are forced to in a way, because if your neighbour is planting bug resistant crops, that you spray once or twice with roundup and eliminate a heap of other way more expensive herbicides, then you are sort of forced to do the same to stay competitive. Lets just say farmers are forced to grow GM crops to be competitive with their neighbours, but they happily pay up rather than grow non GM.

If farmers don't like monsanto, then why are they using their product? It makes no sence to say that. Sort of like saying Toyota cars or McDonalds restaurants, or Sony electonics are not well liked.


See ya's.

 

[Graingrower]

...how about this....

Since the 1980s, Monsanto has become the world leader in genetic modification of seeds and has won 674 biotechnology patents, more than any other company, according to U.S. Department of Agriculture data.

Congratulations Monsanto, If I was a shareholder I would be proud.

Farmers who buy Monsanto’s patented Roundup Ready seeds are required to sign an agreement promising not to save the seed produced after each harvest for re-planting, or to sell the seed to other farmers. This means that farmers must buy new seed every year. Those increased sales, coupled with ballooning sales of its Roundup weed killer, have been a bonanza for Monsanto.

I grow clearfield canola, On the bag there is a label that says something like: "by buying this seed you are agreeing not to save the seed produced after each harvest for re-planting, or to sell the seed to other farmers" exactly the same agreement that GM farmers enter into. Clearfield canola is not GM, but has exactly the same rules as GM, it has been bred to be herbicide tolerant just like roundup ready. By the way Clearfield herbicide costs at least twice the price of roundup and doesn't do as good a job. My point is that most of the arguments people use to knock GM food apply to non GM food.

This radical departure from age-old practice has created turmoil in farm country. Some farmers don’t fully understand that they aren’t supposed to save Monsanto’s seeds for next year’s planting. Others do, but ignore the stipulation rather than throw away a perfectly usable product. Still others say that they don’t use Monsanto’s genetically modified seeds, but seeds have been blown into their fields by wind or deposited by birds. It’s certainly easy for G.M. seeds to get mixed in with traditional varieties when seeds are cleaned by commercial dealers for re-planting. The seeds look identical; only a laboratory analysis can show the difference. Even if a farmer doesn’t buy G.M. seeds and doesn’t want them on his land, it’s a safe bet he’ll get a visit from Monsanto’s seed police if crops grown from G.M. seeds are discovered in his fields. Farmers who buy Monsanto’s patented Roundup Ready seeds are required to sign an agreement promising not to save the seed produced after each harvest for re-planting, or to sell the seed to other farmers. This means that farmers must buy new seed every year. Those increased sales, coupled with ballooning sales of its Roundup weed killer, have been a bonanza for Monsanto.

My grandfather witnessed a radical departure from age-old practice, he used horses and we use a/c tractors steered via satellite. He ploughed to control weeds, we use sprays. He grew lower yielding crops, with a higher cost of production.

 

[topcropper]

Farmers who buy Monsanto’s patented Roundup Ready seeds are required to sign an agreement promising not to save the seed produced after each harvest for re-planting, or to sell the seed to other farmers. This means that farmers must buy new seed every year. Those increased sales, coupled with ballooning sales of its Roundup weed killer, have been a bonanza for Monsanto.

Not being able to keep seed won't make any difference to me. I don't ever keep seed anyway. All the summer crops I grow are hybrids. You can't plant the seed again as it will not be the same plant, hybrids revert back to the undesirable traits of the parent seeds. Hybrid crops have been around for 50 years or so and the yield boost they gave also happened back then.

I've even planted hybrid wheat seed before, but not just lately.

I don't keep wheat seed generally. It's not efficent. It's a nuisance keeping small amounts of seed for half a year, and you never know what variety you will plant anyway. It has to be kept cool and insect free. I generally would only need 20 or 30 tonnes, so it's better that seed is kept in much larger storages. What happens in the real world is one particular farmer who had a very good quality of seed will likely keep a thousand tonnes. He then gets it tested for germination and other qualities, and he will sell it back to the seed company who holds the rights to it for perhaps double value it would otherwise be worth.

Then at planting time you decide what variety you want to plant from the say 10 different types, and order it in. Then you still have to pay PBR royalties to the company who bred the plant type anyway, and you can't sell it to the neighbour or the company who breed it will take you to court, just like monsanto would.

It's an argument I hear all the time, but it's a non event as far as I'm concerned.



I don't think monsanto would make much from roundup. It went off patent in 2000, and the cost of roundup crashed, and it's use by farmers took off. It's now mostly made in China, and I'd think even monsanto's roundup would be made there.

It's as cheap as chips now. Roundup would have doubled production on my farm, plus improved the soil structure form not ploughing anymore and as I keep the stubble on the surface it has elliminated soil erosion.

The real roundup farmers use is 100 times the strength of the diluted rubbish you buy in Bunnings and it costs way less per litre.

There is more than a little storm in a tea cup between some "individuals" and "large companies" going on here.

See ya's.

 

[MarkB]

@ the OP and in regards to the title of the thread...

The future of your food might be GM modified polyculture producted in far off lands and filled with the goodness of all sorts of fertilisers and pesticides....

The future of my food (actually largely the present too, btw) is organically produced and locally sourced in poly and permaculture settings.

Anyways, good luck with that.

 

[Graingrower]

On a more general future of food (not specific to GM), financial speculation is causeing a lot of increases in prices. Hedge funds et al are looking for ways to improve their returns and at the moment commodity plays are the go, at the expense of the worlds poorer population unfortunately

Is the problem high priced food or lack of money in third world countries. My Dad tells me that in the 1960s there were signs up everywhere telling farmers to grow more wheat and that they would get a guaranteed price of at least $66/tonne, and that was a good price. Today wheat is selling for approx 5 times that. If you take inflation into account wheat (and food in general) is so much cheaper now than it was then or ever has been (except for the last two years). Ultimately supply and demand drive prices and speculation has only a small effect. You can read an excellent report about the factors that drove wheat prices to an all time high in 2008, here: (3.3MB) http://www.nuffieldinternational.org/rep_pdf/1260923275Bruce_Watson_Nuffield_Report.pdf

 

[charlieandkath]

I believe farmers shoot themselves in the foot when they grow GM or the other varieties that yield more. Good way to stay poor.

In my opinion we need to produce half what we do all over the world. This would be simple. Just cut out the use of synthetic fertilizers.

This would force commodity prices up by 5 to 10 times at least and then the farmers would be able to live a good life again instead of working flat strap to make bugger all.

 

[Graingrower]

I've even planted hybrid wheat seed before, but not just lately.

I've never heard of hybrid wheat. I guess the cost of producing seed at the sowing rates required would make it prohibitive.

 

[topcropper]

I've never heard of hybrid wheat. I guess the cost of producing seed at the sowing rates required would make it prohibitive.

We had the varieties hybrid comet and hybrid meteor, then later, hybrid mercury. I think they were only popular on the Liverpool Plains. Best wheats we ever grew by a long mile.

As you know, yields are pretty good here, and we also plant at relatively low rates. 50 kilos per hectare is heaps. So it made sense to wheat growers here. But the hybrid seed was expensive to grow, and so the costs to buy was expensive too.

Then a rust came along and they took to them badly, and as it was a small market, they weren't produced again.

We last grew mercury maybe 6 or 7 years ago, and nothing else has come close since. We would love another hybrid wheat to come out. I would guess that at the peak, more than half the wheat in this district was mercury.

Google hybrid mercury wheat.


See ya's.

 

[Magic Bullet]

from topcropper..

Not being able to keep seed won't make any difference to me. I don't ever keep seed anyway. All the summer crops I grow are hybrids.

What's to stop the Monsanto roundup ready GMO seeds hybridising with weed seeds and creating super weeds that you won't be able to get rid of alongside of your high yielding super GMO crops. I'm sure the cane toad was a good idea at the time also.

Great post Mark B

The future of your food might be GM modified polyculture producted in far off lands and filled with the goodness of all sorts of fertilisers and pesticides....

The future of my food (actually largely the present too, btw) is organically produced and locally sourced in poly and permaculture settings.

Anyways, good luck with that.

I'm 100% with you. I'm about to start growing my own organic, permaculture produce.

Happy to be called a "greeny latte organic hippie" if that's what you mean by caring for Mother Earth and it's inhabitants, topcropper.

Cheers

 

[Corey Batt]

I like cheap food.

 

[prawn_86]

Is the problem high priced food or lack of money in third world countries.

I think it is a bit of both. Western economies have had inflation throughout the last few decades, hence making the wheat prices cheaper in those terms, but poorer countries dont have the infrastructure etc in place to be able to grow.

Hence we have grown, they haven't, food has inflated and they have no way of inflating their income to keep up with it and have to rely on a handout culture