The Quality Investor

[investor]

Originally posted by Aceyducey
Investor,

I note that you've shifted from providing your views to nitpicking mine -

Hi Aceyducey

No don't feel that way, I'm just trying to understand why you place so much importance to ethics when it comes to measuring the success of an investor. But by answering my question you have proven my point, and it is in fact you who has come to agree with me.

That is :

Of course ethics varies by the person.

It's always possible to find someone who believes they are more ethical than you - that's not the measure I apply.

So in fact you have agreed with me that ethics should not be applied when measuring the success of an investor purely because it is such a large variable and will therefore vary according to the investor. You can forever debate on what is ethical and what isn't so it should be excluded from the criteria to identify the most successful investor. Don't confuse ethics with legality however.

Let's cosider two Investors which started off with the same outlay and have invested for the same amount of time and both have acted legaly.

Investor #1 has ended up with 1mil in equity, cash,shares etc
Investor #2 has 10mil after the same period of time.

Who is the most successful investor ?
I would say investor #2.

Investor #1 cannot possibly turn around and say "Yeah he made 10 times more than me because he acted unethically" he would not have a leg to stand on, because as you have clearly stated, ethics varies by the person. So investor #2 is the most successful investor.

I am glad that you have come to agree with me that the levels of ethics involved in an investment decision vary according to the investor and therefore play no importance on how successful that investor may be.

Unfortunately, at the end of the day, the only measure I can think of that can guage the success of an investor is how much $$$$ he ends up with provided that other variables such as time and initial outlay are constant and equal.
There are however factors which attributed to their success such as their ability to see a bargain and act on it, their ability to position funds to maximize returns etc etc which we can talk about.

But the only measure I see is the $$$ at the end of the day.


Regards

Investor

PS. I agree with JoannaK

 

[Aceyducey]

Nice counter twist Investor, not true that we agree but nice twist nonetheless

I'm going to close out my contribution to this thread by saying that I hope it raises a lot of thoughts in peoples' minds about ethics in investing & the choices they make.

To me investing is simply one approach to happiness through wealth. Personally I like it as an approach because I can control the process, it gives me great satisfaction to create 'stuff' and provide shelter to others and I am not required to destroy or maim people professionally or emotionally to move ahead.

I could equally become wealthy in the business world, but found over ten years that the lack of ethics, ruthlessness & egos in the corporate world did not leave me feeling happy with myself in the actions I had to take to build and defend businesses.

Everyone has to choose their own path, applying ethics is a tool to ensure your path is an enjoyable one to walk.

You target wealth as the purpose of investing, possibly because you do not see other paths to get to this goal. I see lifestyle as the purpose of investing, because I can see many other paths to wealth but through investing I gain the greatest joy.

Cheers,

Aceyducey

 

[geoffw]

Originally posted by Aceyducey
I see lifestyle as the purpose of investing, because I can see many other paths to wealth but through investing I gain the greatest joy.

Acey,

The "joy" is the only point I want to pick up on in this debate.

Although it was not my intention, the "joy" I've had is not so much in the satisfaction of a good investment, or the satisfaction of a good return- or even both.

It's been the satisfaction of taking an ordinary little house, painting it, putting in floors, curtains or whatever- and seeing a quite special place replace that very unsatisfactory place.

Obviously, I would not have done it just because I liked the looks. The extra rent or capital value has provided a satisfaction in its own right.

Acey, I've seen what you and Jas have done to one place- I'm sure that you've had that same feeling of satisfaction.

And I've read the same feeling by people who post their before and/or after pictures.

It's great to get that satisfaction. For me, it's especially good because I'm a desk person. And, I swore 13 years ago, that I would never do reno work myself again.

I've done it now. I don't want to do it full time (but I know I have that fallback if there's problems with my job). And I'd love to do it again. Within limits.

The profit (in whatever form) is important.

But the satisfaction of seeing your own handiwork looking good- and even the feedback of a satisfied tenant- is also a good bonus.

I'm really enjoying this.

 

[bundy1964]

Originally posted by JoannaK
If I listed a property on the market, it would be MY responsiblity to ensure that it is listed at an appropriate market price.

I heard an interesting one tonight.....

My friend does a plumbing job for a couple and they offer him a block of land for $X. Contracts are signed and deposit is paid. Couple get an offer for $X higher, after much legal talk original offer stands. Couple said it was worth a try to get mates offer withdrawn then invite him in for coffee. Mate is now subdividing 60+ house blocks

bundy

 

[investor]

Originally posted by Aceyducey
Nice counter twist Investor, not true that we agree but nice twist nonetheless

I thought you would like that.

Nice closing post Aceyducey I like it.

Good luck in your journey in the world of property.


Regards

Investor

 

[yadreamin]

I have been digging around in the dark and dusty again and this is a good thread if you have a bit of time for a read. It really does make one THINK.
cheers yadreamin

 

[JoannaK]

yes, this is a very interesting thread indeed...

 

[jahn]

Hi all
And one of the most interesting things is, that this is so many years on, and time has not changed the relevance of the coments/thoughts
Since then, property and investments have surged, levelled dropped, etc,
And it was also good to finish on a good note
jahn

 

[sue78]

I can understand Acey's views but at the same tiem I can understand Investor's too.

Investor - actually, being an investor you shouldn't give a damn about how people measure your success. At the end of the day, we all made money and we don't need to compare how much each person made because we are all winners.

The difference is how you feel about yourself with the way you have made your money ethically or not so ethically. If you feel good then good for you. If there's something nagging at you then you probably made an error of judgement along the way.

Acey- personally, if it was blatantly obvious that a house was being sold for way below market value, I probably wouldn't feel right about the deal. Call me stupid but I would advise the owner and then if he still wanted to get rid of it then fine with me. I may have lost a good deal but then I don't feel upset about it so doesn't matter. Infact, it probably makes me feel better about myself.

I have made a decision to not increase our rent this year. In the last 2 years it has increased by more than 15% and one tenant has expressed to me that it's starting to get a bit tough for her. The last increase, I actually felt guilty and in hindsight, I should have stopped our agent. When you take into consideraion loss of rent if she moves,out, losing 1 week finders fee and the new tenants may not be good then it's not worth it to be too greedy for the sake of an extra $5 per week.

Maybe people here are not religious but I am. The way I see it is that I don't need to increase rent to gain an extra $5 p.w per house. Maybe God will bless us in other ways i.e Capital Growth, promotion or doesn't even have to do with money.

 

[Les]

Kudos for the thread....

G'day all,

Yes, I agree this thread has a lot of interesting thoughts attached. As such, it may be worth some "kudos" .....

I'm a bit surprised it doesn't have any stars. But, to display these, three or more people must think it worthy. Since this is a thread, the way to give it kudos is to use the "Rate thread" drop-down at the top of the page. If enough people agree, it will get its stars.

Edited later:- I endeavoured to give it my vote for stars, but nope, I'd already done this and it wouldn't let me do it again. Fair enough.... Over to you now,

Regards,