The self fulfilling prophecy of Steve Keen

if you are an investor and if you know what you are doing and if you have been operating according to a valid plan with good risk management, i am sure that everything will be all right. it is the people who got swept along by the excitement and saw property investment as a quick and easy path to riches that will likely bear the brunt of the downturn. it is the same with any other downturn. the good businesses survive and then thrive (due to decreased competition) and the amateurs get swept out to sea and are never seen again.

if you are a professional investor nothing SK says should matter. if you are an amateur who does not have a strong background in the field--yeah, i think now might be a good time to panic as you probably had no business investing in real estate anyway.

Great post Urch,

Nice to see that we do agree on some things. Having a sound business strategy with a plan to weather any storm is a very sensible approach.

Keen is definitely triggering fear amongst the property owning/selling community. My local RE Agent is spewing at him. :D

The fact is this ongoing strong reaction of fear and negative sentiment from the herd will be ringing loudly in the ears of the Govt and RBA and, although it shouldn't, will probably influence their decisions regarding overshooting with IR reductions and spending the surplus to attempt to regain confidence.
 
the property market will fall 40%' entirely based on what has happened in the US is irresponsible.
I agree it's irresponsible but I think half the problem is the way he was put on a pedastool as an expert.

I can't see property falling 40%, what I can see is price freeze, property stays around the same $ value but inflation increases and time progresses. So in reality the price will have declined in real $ but the actual price will still be the same nominal $ number.

But the best way to sell advertising or newspapers is sensational stories. Doesn't need to be factual just sensational.

Boring mediocre news doesn't sell newspapers.

Regards
Graeme
 
Now let me see.

I own the average house in a average town in your average part of NSW. Now if my house was to drop 40% that would put its value at just under WHAT IT WOULD COST TO BUILD THE BLOODY HOUSE BY ITSELF. I will not get into the land value as on these states alone i dont need too. Plus to rent it would be neutral to just positively geared. Hell if it does get that low i will beg,borrow and steal to buy as many as i can as i know as soon as good times arrive UP UP UP they go again.

My situation above could be said for many people.A 40 % drop covering all of Australia is unrealistic. Its stupid. Its below replacement cost of the buildings alone for many.Yes some may suffer big falls but there are many markets in Australia.


PS Has anyone seen this Keen bloke smile. Bloody hell he must be the life at partys.

Q How do you know Steve Keen is at your party??

A He is the bloke telling everyone your birthday cake is worth half what you paid for it Ha ha ha.

Ok thats bad im going to bed now.
 
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Q How do you know Steve Keen is at your party??

A He is the bloke telling everyone your birthday cake is worth half what you paid for it Ha ha ha.

Devo
Not bad at all...:D
or he would tell you not to buy a birthday cake because tomorrow it will sell for 40% less...;)
Cheers
 
Now let me see.

I own the average house in a average town in your average part of NSW. Now if my house was to drop 40% that would put its value at just under WHAT IT WOULD COST TO BUILD THE BLOODY HOUSE BY ITSELF. I will not get into the land value as on these states alone i dont need too. Plus to rent it would be neutral to just positively geared. Hell if it does get that low i will beg,borrow and steal to buy as many as i can as i know as soon as good times arrive UP UP UP they go again.

My situation above could be said for many people.A 40 % drop covering all of Australia is unrealistic. Its stupid. Its below replacement cost of the buildings alone for many.Yes some may suffer big falls but there are many markets in Australia.


PS Has anyone seen this Keen bloke smile. Bloody hell he must be the life at partys.

Q How do you know Steve Keen is at your party??

A He is the bloke telling everyone your birthday cake is worth half what you paid for it Ha ha ha.

Ok thats bad im going to bed now.

lol nice. :) but it would be really, really sad if you had to buy your own birthday cake...

i think your qualifiers defined your argument. average house, average town. in saner towns where people retain a grip on reality prices have probably not been overinflated as in the more insanity prone places.

in canberra, for example, a "medium range" home on a 700-800m2 block that is a 20 minute drive from the centre of town will run about a half a million. easy. half a million! and this is canberra ffs, not sydney or melb or a real city. i love canberra--great place to live--but come on, we are 2.5 hours from the ocean, 3 hours from sydney and surrounded by miles upon miles upon miles of.... completely empty land.

these prices are for suburbs where the median price range was in the low to mid 200ks just 5 years ago. so if we lop off 40%, people who bought 5 years ago still see a 30-50% return on their investment. i would be very happy with that kind of return. i would have absolutely no problem whatsoever with that kind of return. especially if i were getting rent and/or tax benefits on top of it. so in canberra at least, a 40% drop is not at all unreasonable i think. there is no logical reason for prices being this high. even the housing shortage argument doesnt hold water as rents are actually dropping (gonna have to renegotiate with my LL if this keeps up!)

i don't think we should get overly hung up on SKs numbers--individual results will vary and all that. but there is no question that there are some horribly inflated places in the country.

the problem--the REAL danger--is that the implosion of these localised bubbles will send shockwaves throughout the economy as a whole and end up affecting places that do not deserve to be affected. precisely the sort of thing we are seeing in the stock market, where the good companies go down with the bad.

but if you are a cashed up investor when that happens, and you know your stuff backwards and forwards, you will be like a kid in a candy shop trying to decide between all the tasty treats on offer...

so, as is usually the case, the rich will get richer and those who wanted to be rich but didnt have the expertise or knowledge base will get screwed. as for me, i will be happy to just get a fair price for a house. i know my area of expertise and it is not real estate investment.
 
From my years in the stock & property market i have realised negative or positive sentiment is mostly based on things happening in reality. Fear and rumour rarely exist in a vacuum devoid of concrete reason.

Sure, what S Keen is saying could affect the market. Big deal...if he believes what hes saying why shouldn't he say it. Unlike RE agents and their ridiculous REI's who constantly talk the market up there isn't an obvious ulterior motive for S Keen.

Has anyone entertained the possibility that a 40% fall could occur over the 5-10 years ahead.

I'd say, taking inflation into account, it could happen, just as it did in the 90s.

Unfortunately a lot of what is happening on the share market at the moment is based on fear and rumour, rather than fact. The share market 'hates' the unknown, which is what is happening at the moment.
 
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I wouldnt care less how he makes his money. Why would you give a toss?

My post was more of a general sense that there are a lot more ways to make money then property for anyone.

I don't actually care either, but when a guy is on tv constantly, being presented as an expert in economics, and appears to be living in an average lookingapartment no less; in an average looking lower middle class suburb - not a decent McMansion in a "postcode" suburb etc - and is about to sell it at a loss; how can anyone who is watching really believe he knows anything.

Not that he should walk out the front door of his Toorak mansion and lean on the yellow Ferrari as he chats with Liz, but you see where I'm going with this.

He doesn't appear to be walking any talk with his expertise from what I can see. I just find it an interesting observation is all.

Of course; I'll be very happy if he is right about lower interest rates.
 
From your perspective and values that might be the case. But he might not share your or my materialistic (or other) values.

After all, he is an academic and they are a law unto themselves.

By the way, his apartment is in Surry Hills. Surry Hills is a very, very trendy inner city Sydney suburb. Used to be run down being right next to Redfern but these days you cant move for the models, cafes, Porsches etc.

Also, how do you know he is about to sell at a loss? Similar to Lizzies post yesterday that he is receiving payment for his media interviews. How does she know that? Any proof? It's probably not true at all.

I don't actually care either, but when a guy is on tv constantly, being presented as an expert in economics, and appears to be living in an average lookingapartment no less; in an average looking lower middle class suburb - not a decent McMansion in a "postcode" suburb etc - and is about to sell it at a loss; how can anyone who is watching really believe he knows anything.

Not that he should walk out the front door of his Toorak mansion and lean on the yellow Ferrari as he chats with Liz, but you see where I'm going with this.

He doesn't appear to be walking any talk with his expertise from what I can see. I just find it an interesting observation is all.

Of course; I'll be very happy if he is right about lower interest rates.
 
Doomsayer gets instant fame

Steve Keen

Doomsayer gets instant fame

Gerard Henderson
October 21, 2008
Page 1 of 2 | Single page

Photo: John Shakespeare
Advertisement

It had to happen. In the international financial crisis, it was always likely the cult of celebrity would merge with that of economic doomsayer. In Australia the leading doom-celeb is none other than Steve Keen, the associate professor of economics and finance at the University of Western Sydney.

What a month it has been for Professor Keen. In late September he was photographed in The Daily Telegraph along with his partner, Melina Forrest. He, looking at the camera, clad in a white T-shirt with a blue patch on which was printed a quote from the economist John Maynard Keynes. She, standing close and looking admiringly into his eyes.

It's not often that a middle-aged academic from a suburban university receives such coverage in the popular press. How did he get there? By predicting another Great Depression, like the one that devastated the Western world in the 1930s, that's how.

The immediate justification for the story was the announcement Keen had decided to sell his apartment in inner-city Sydney. There was even a touch of lament as the associate professor explained his reasoning to the avid reporter: "It breaks my heart. But I don't want to live my old age in poverty and there's no point in paying a mortgage on an asset that is going to fall by 40 per cent or so in the next few years."

You wonder precisely why this doom-celeb believes it is a good idea to advise potential buyers of his abode that any such purchase will decline in value by 40 per cent in but a few years. Perhaps he is not such a fatalist, after all.

Or, perhaps, he likes the media attention which he would not have received if he had predicted a recession (rather than a depression) with housing prices declining by, say, only 20 per cent. To receive maximum coverage, doom-celebs need to err on the side of hyperbole.

On Sunday night I learnt of Keen's forthcoming appearance on 60 Minutes by a Channel Nine promo which announced his prediction of a depression accompanied by "at least a 10 to 15 per cent level of unemployment".

The program titled "The Big Bust" certainly lived up to its heading. Presenter Liz Hayes referred to the current looming economic downturn as "the worst financial crisis the world has seen". It seems that she overlooked the Great Depression when, in Australia, unemployment rose to 30 per cent of the essentially male workforce.

Soon the sage shifted to Keen's domestic arrangements. Hayes reported that "he hasn't found a buyer yet" for his home but she seemed impressed he had put his property where his mouth was, so to speak. So much so that the presenter saw a lesson in such behaviour for 60 Minutes viewers, commenting: "It says a lot when you, the economist, decides that you have got to sell." Hayes then asked: "Is that something we should all be doing?" The answer was broadly in the affirmative.

Hayes' reference to Keen as "the economist" was revealing. It is true that he was the only economist heard in that part of the program which covered the Australian economy. However, many economists would take a less alarmist view of the Australian - and even the American - economy. For example, on 60 Minutes, Keen prophesised a depression lasting "about 10 years". Whereas the American economist Jason Weisberg predicted a world recession (not depression) and maintained that it would be "not long-lived".

In between his Daily Telegraph star coverage and his star billing on 60 Minutes, Keen was interviewed by the 7.30 Report's Kerry O'Brien on ABC 1. A Google search reveals Keen invariably receives soft interviews on the ABC and is rarely, if ever, subjected to a debate where another qualified economist can test his seeming hyperbole. Keen ran his familiar lines to O'Brien, except that he notched up his estimate of looming unemployment to 20 per cent. In Keen-speak that's not adding hyperbole, just rounding up.

The following evening, O'Brien interviewed Kevin Rudd. Instead of positing his own questions, the 7.30 Report presenter asked the Prime Minister to respond to Keen's views. It was as if Australia's leading doom-celeb is the only economist worth hearing.

On no fewer than three occasions, O'Brien asked Rudd about Keen's predictions that there will be a marked fall in property values. Not unexpectedly, the Prime Minister made it known that he was not in the business of providing predictions "about where house prices are going".

Put simply, Keen does not approve of debt. His predictions of a debt-induced decade-long depression, with home prices reduced by 40 per cent and unemployment rising to up to 20 per cent, may be correct.

But this doom-celeb's soothsaying may prove to be wrong. In which case The Daily Telegraph, 60 Minutes and The 7.30 Report will have run Keen's views virtually without challenge.

Keen has been able to get away with the view that there is something inevitable about the coming of a 1930s-style Great Depression. This overlooks the fact that governments can take decisions which may alleviate increases in unemployment or falls in property prices. Despite Keen's economic determinism, there is little that is inevitable about economics. The Australian media would be well advised to be more sceptical about economists with messages on their (fashionable) T-shirts.
 
Guys - are we missing the obvious here. This report was on 60 minutes. I'm afraid the days of hard hitting factual reporting have well and truly gone out the window. If you are looking to 60 minutes for advise and clear direction forget it. They are only interested in sensationalism these days.
 
This is just another example of giving one media story credibility because it aligns with our existing beliefs while bagging others that dont.

You guys have to stop trying to stay in your comfort zones in this manner (and others). It might make you feel warm and fuzzy inside but doesn't get you far.

In fact could get you in more financial trouble than taking on board S Keens predictions or at least acknowledging them.


Very true...
 
I cant see the relevance of your question but i suppose from property values as they are now.

Why hasn't that question ever arisen during the thousands of property value topics have come up on the forum? Why now?

A fall from what though! Some of the inflated prices that salesman quote, or what you really think your property is worth!
 
in canberra, for example, a "medium range" home on a 700-800m2 block that is a 20 minute drive from the centre of town will run about a half a million. easy. half a million! and this is canberra ffs, not sydney or melb or a real city. i love canberra--great place to live--but come on, we are 2.5 hours from the ocean, 3 hours from sydney and surrounded by miles upon miles upon miles of.... completely empty land.

Areas of Canberra that would be most vulnerable would be areas like Banks, outer Gungahlin etc - massive increases in the last few years, both on the far outskirts of Canberra - yet I can buy cheaper within 10k of the city. Canberra has highest average income in Australia, many DINKS, and a govt strangled supply of new housing. Its actually surprising areas close to the city aren't more expensive (may have something to do with spreading public housing through all but four suburbs).
 
. Its actually surprising areas close to the city aren't more expensive (may have something to do with spreading public housing through all but four suburbs).


Spose it's because Canberra is more like a big country town. Most country towns the expensive property in on the edge of town, and the really rich live on acreage just out of town. A place like Tamworth, it's just a 10 minute drive into the CBD even from a lifestyle acreage property. The houses in the CBD are generally the lowest socio economic houses.

Total opposite of Sydney eh?

See ya's.
 
unfortunately i watched the 60 minutes program on sunday night... and i had to explain to my sister just how sensationalist Steve Keen is, because she was damn near crapping herself (just about to finish uni and go into the real world).

It took a lot of explaining, but eventually i had to similarise his financial prophecies to hilter's "final solution", and finally she calmed down.

I fear for how much effect that "report" had on the general populous.... and im looking forward to Peter Hervey's mailbag next week - there better be some scathing letters!!
 
This is just another example of giving one media story credibility because it aligns with our existing beliefs while bagging others that dont.

Evan,

You have made your point. And quite frankly I do agree with you. People will think what they think and learn what they learn. It is good to point out the fact that people may be getting excited because an article justifies their beliefs and they need that belief propped up for their own reassurance.

We all have to believe in something to base our actions on. The problem I see is being attached to the belief and not being able to let go even when it gets challenged by reality.

Keep being the great leveler on this forum mate. I don't always agree with you but I learn a lot from you in an indirect way because you challenge everybodies view so often. Though saying this, I wouldn't mind hearing from the more positive side of you every now and then - if you have one???

Regards, Ian

ps: I am expecting you to challenge something that I have written here. :D
 
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