My theory on why the market is a little spooked

I've been chatting to a lot of agents/buyers/developers/bankers/bums off the street and have a theory that I'd like to share.

I believe that the current uncertainty in the market is the result of a combination of the following factors

1 the RBA increased interest rates several times, in rapid succession, which dented buyer, investor, and consumer confidence, resulting in lower demand for property from cautious investors, greater supply of property from cashflow poor vendors, and slower spending from consumers with less disposable income.

2 banks tightened lending requirements significantly, particularly by requiring genuine savings as a deposit. this reduced demand from buyers who had the capacity to buy, even though they had the capacity to pay, while they took time out to start saving up for a deposit

3 banks tightened lending/presale requirements for developers, resulting in a decreased demand for developable land, and the shelving of entire development projects. Simultaneously, cash strapped, leveraged developers experiencing longer clearance times were more willing to discount existing inventory

4 the emergence of a two tier economy (resource vs everyone else) strengthened resource workers/investors, yet stongly disadvantaged the remainder of the market, because the mining boom simultaneously propped up the australian dollar (making non resource based exports more expensive, reducing local tourism, reducing overseas demand for aussie property etc) and neccessitated the RBAs increase in interest rates.

5 government stimulus ended, or was greatly reduced, removing artificial upward price pressure based on liquidity

6 government stimulus had the effect of overheating the market a little too much, causing some reckless speculation, price inflation, and the building in of capital appreciation that should have occurred over the next 2-3 years into the price of property sold today, thereby undermining investor confidence and demand

7 media reports heavily weighted towards doom and gloom, crash type scenarios, absolutely scaring the life out of buyers and developers alike, creating a self fulfilling prophecy effect whereby the reports themselves (which may br true, or not) actually created the scenario that they were describing, which is double irritating because not only is it reckless, but these same people ahve been wrong about the impending bust for aroundabout the last decade.

8 we have hit the affordability ceiling for a lot of people, who want to buy, but cant really justify doing it because if they cant pay, how can they expect to onsell to someone else who will pay more. I think that the affordability ceiling has been hit because housing prices are out of line with inflation and wage increases. Thats not to say that it is a bubble per se, but that people who dont already have money/properties are priced out

I think that the convergence of the above factors (and a few more that I dont think are strong enough to bother listing, although I may revisit the post) created the low confidence that we are seeing today.

I personally think that we should be okay in the medium to long term, and refuse to follow the fearful ones and panic sell (Im unleveraged anyway, so the world can be on fire around me and Ill be there with a packet of marshmallows), but thats what I think.

Furthermore, I find the following factors encouraging:

a) we have strong levels of population growth, that will sustain demand for property

b) we have a high australian dollar, which at present increases resource based exports, any fall in value of which will strengthen the remainder of the economy, as well as increase demand from overseas investors

c) we have a large segment of the market highly invested in negative gearing (1.5 million australians), thereby supporting demand/staving off a mass sell and making policy change unlikely

d) we are looking at an anticipated increase in rental yields, which may in some way offset the built in capital appreciation present in property pricing for the investor

e) we have recently seen implementation of green energy building guidelines, which are increasing the cost of building, and replacement cost of property, by 5-10 or so percent (depending).

What do you guys think? Im not an economist, but then, that's a good thing, because most of those guys are full of it and have track records that look like train wrecks
 
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houses are too expensive and people can't afford them

We've shown you more than once that housing is not too expensive and that even a low income earner can afford them. But that's fine.......you keep believing that. We need renters. The more there are, the more demand, and I'm loving my rents going up each six months.:D
 
How can you ignore the fact that the average house is now 7-9 times the average wage and 20 years ago it was more like 4-5 times the average wage.

yes, people can buy property out your way on low incomes. But your area is way below the average Australian and Sydney average price. So its not really representative.

And rents aren't rising every 6 months, where did you get that idea from? :D

We've shown you more than once that housing is not too expensive and that even a low income earner can afford them. But that's fine.......you keep believing that. We need renters. The more there are, the more demand, and I'm loving my rents going up each six months.:D
 
houses are too expensive and people can't afford them

I agree with skater, houses are not too expensive, and most people can afford them, but the level of financial input/sacrifice they have to endure is very high compared to normal historical levels and a lot of people arent willing to enter the market for themselves.

Its a self reinforcing problem, because investors have tax incentives that occupiers do not, and so the longer a person takes to enter the market, the greater the advantage of the investor, who will continue to build wealth and price occupiers out of the market.

People were saying that houses were too expensive and that they couldnt afford them back in 97. I daresay that if you asked that same person if they wished that they could buy back then, based on the money they were making back then, they would likely say yes, and figure out some way that they could have afforded it. In other words, they were wrong then, were wrong for more than a decade, and theres a reasonable chance that theyre wrong now.

I know 18 year olds working entry level jobs who bought property a couple of years ago (now theyre 20) - its a little disingenious to make a sweeping statement like "houses are too expensive and people cant afford them" in light of that, and also, since the houses are owned by someone, then clearly, someone can afford them.
 
And rents aren't rising every 6 months, where did you get that idea from? :D

Oh, gee, I must be imagining my increases. :rolleyes:

I think I might have a bit more knowledge on what my income is, don't you? :rolleyes:

As for affordability, well, if you want to live near the CBD you can expect prices to be expensive. That goes without saying. It would be the same in any Capital City. However, I was actually referring to another thread where Beebop was having a whinge about affordability and posters have given examples of places that affordable housing exists.

http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69876
 
Its just a normal housing/economic cycle doing its thing.

This, ultimately, is what it boils down to.

Of course, property investors should be a bit better than the average bear at finding property with potential, and as such I'd expect investors to have success stories even during periods of non growth.
 
You raise your rents on all your properties every 6 months?

If so. Al i can say is amazing as i've never seen that in all my years owning property. (since 1988)

I can see your point about affordable areas but thats a small segment of the market and not everyone wants to live there.

But, overall, housing is relatively, much more expensive than it has ever been.

Oh, gee, I must be imagining my increases. :rolleyes:

I think I might have a bit more knowledge on what my income is, don't you? :rolleyes:

As for affordability, well, if you want to live near the CBD you can expect prices to be expensive. That goes without saying. It would be the same in any Capital City. However, I was actually referring to another thread where Beebop was having a whinge about affordability and posters have given examples of places that affordable housing exists.

http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69876
 
You raise your rents on all your properties every 6 months? ]If so. Al i can say is amazing as i've never seen that in all my years owning property. (since 1988)


That's not what I said. I said "I'm loving my rents going up each six months" Not ALL my properties are going up every six months, but my overall rent IS going up every six months. There are some that ARE going up each six months in the portfolio and some that are not. I am well aware that at some stage the rents will once again stagnate in those that are currently being pushed up, but I'm not going to stop raising the rents while the market is saying that I can.





I can see your point about affordable areas but thats a small segment of the market and not everyone wants to live there.

But, overall, housing is relatively, much more expensive than it has ever been

Again, I wasn't saying that everyone wants to live there, I'm just pointing out that most people can afford to buy there, proving that if someone is willing to make a sacrifice, then even if on a low income they can afford to purchase property. If you want to live elsewhere, then you have to accept that it is going to be much more expensive.
 
we are going thru a massive global shake out and the huge run up of credit of the last 20 or so years has collapsed. Is it any wonder the market is 'a little spooked'?
 
Things become much clearer with some explanation. But not quite the same. ;)

That's not what I said. I said "I'm loving my rents going up each six months" Not ALL my properties are going up every six months, but my overall rent IS going up every six months. There are some that ARE going up each six months in the portfolio and some that are not. I am well aware that at some stage the rents will once again stagnate in those that are currently being pushed up, but I'm not going to stop raising the rents while the market is saying that I can.







Again, I wasn't saying that everyone wants to live there, I'm just pointing out that most people can afford to buy there, proving that if someone is willing to make a sacrifice, then even if on a low income they can afford to purchase property. If you want to live elsewhere, then you have to accept that it is going to be much more expensive.
 
How can you ignore the fact that the average house is now 7-9 times the average wage and 20 years ago it was more like 4-5 times the average wage.

Interest rates were between 10 and 18% for many of those years.

Affordability then was probably no different to now, in what a person was able to afford in interest repayments.

Personally I remember things being pretty tough.

This would have most certainly been one of the reasons for the slower growth in house prices during that period.
 
Thats true. I remember they used to raise rates by 1% at a time then.

But it doesnt change the fact that house are many multiples of wages more than they used to be. At these multiples, raising rates by 1% (or even half a %) at a time would destroy alot of people financially.

It leaves people very vulnerable to any changes in the economics of the country and leaves the property market finely balanced imo. Much moreso than 20 years ago.

I think rates will rise by the end of this year. Its not going to be pretty.

Interest rates were between 10 and 18% for many of those years.

Affordability then was probably no different to now, in what a person was able to afford in interest repayments.

Personally I remember things being pretty tough.

This would have most certainly been one of the reasons for the slower growth in house prices during that period.
 
My theory on why the market is a little spooked

Real estate is a long term investment. You shouldn't get carried away by or try to rationalise (obviously it makes for intersting discussion, but not sure what value it adds) the short term fluctuations - weakness in the market or strength. Invest on the basis of the long term drivers of value.
 
i'll tell you a story.

we sold our house in Karrinyup to my FIL - he made me promise to sell it to him only when we moved. so i did. this was Dec 2007 and the settlement was Jan 2008.

my BIL went 50/50 with my FIL. it's neg geared up the 5h1thouse (well, for my liking anyway) and their rent is about $20pw short of market but he's the old man, what can you say that hasn't been said already?

we bought this house and watched it's value go up 250% in 4 years.

after they bought it, values stagnated for about 18m.

BIL and my new SIL want to buy a place of their own, now, so Karrinyup is on the market - agent has recommended a min price of nearly $100k over what they bought it for. it's a renovated 3x1 opposite a park with a huge front deck overlooking it, squished in between lake gwelup and karrinyup shops. mintox position.

after neg gearing, that's still $25k profit each in an apparently flat-to-falling market. that's a better wealth hedge than gold at present (*gold bugs need not reply - it's a JOKE).

so guess what? they're buying what they can afford. SIL wants to start a family so they're looking at buying something they can afford on BIL's wage alone.

Girrawheen is looking like their budget, and they're happy about it because

1) they don't have to rent (there's the 80% not caring too much about values).

2) they can afford it (smart homebuyers not dreaming)

3) they get land component at least 60% of the property value (my influence)

4) they can settle down and start a family on a big block close to most amenities

5) did i mention that they don't want to rent?

so there we have it. 2x GenYers wiling to sacrifice position and suburb status to own something outright that they can afford on one wage. wife leaning on the husband because she wants a house. buying in the lull against all odds. ignoring potential economic fundamentals.

appears people aren't just happy to rent, and like i said, there will come a time for most people when renting is just not cutting it anymore.

buy what you can afford, even if you have to downgrade.

food for thought.
 
Thats true. I remember they used to raise rates by 1% at a time then.

But it doesnt change the fact that house are many multiples of wages more than they used to be. At these multiples, raising rates by 1% (or even half a %) at a time would destroy alot of people financially.

It leaves people very vulnerable to any changes in the economics of the country and leaves the property market finely balanced imo. Much moreso than 20 years ago.

I think rates will rise by the end of this year. Its not going to be pretty.


I think they'd take more care when there's more debt - more debt would mean smaller hikes for a similar effect.

At the end of the day they'd want a slowdown , not destroy the economy.

Also unemployment is low, unlike 20 years ago, and is likely to stay that way for some time, I would think.

I think a slowdown and/or small drops (possibly for an extended period) in the housing market is imminent, but a crash... very unlikely, imo.
 
How can you ignore the fact that the average house is now 7-9 times the average wage and 20 years ago it was more like 4-5 times the average wage.

CommSec on the housing market

CommSec's Craig James has been relentlessly right about Australia's housing market, which contrasts rather strikingly with his critics on the housing loonie fringe (when they write about housing, senior journos often complain to me about the nutters that seem to dwell in the shadows of this most emotive topic). In any event, James has an effective little piece on the atmospherics of housing right now:

"There is an old adage in economics – there are lies, damned lies and statistics. And when it comes to the issue of housing valuations and affordability, there is a lot of data that can be categorised in the two former terms and much less in the latter.

As we go across the country we are amazed at the number of people concerned that our home prices are overvalued. Magazines like The Economist must take some of the blame, together with web sites like Demographia and even some industry groups like the Housing Industry Association.

Home prices in Australia are determined by demand and supply. In recent years demand has been strong, driven by the biggest in-bound migration in history. But in some parts of the country, supply – new dwelling construction – has not kept pace. In large part this has been in NSW as well as Queensland. In other parts of the country, governments have increased land supply, reduced barriers for developers and rezoned land for housing. And as a result dwelling starts are running above long-term averages.

The Reserve Bank Governor was asked a question on Australian home prices when he delivered a speech in London on March 10. The comments weren’t well reported, but he highlighted the fact that home prices aren’t rising strongly at present, that arrears rates on mortgages are low, gearing isn’t high and that, overall, home prices “are probably not top of my list of worries.”

However Glenn Stevens did say something else: “But I think – the other thing I’ll say is that it’s quite often quoted very high ratios of price to income for Australia, but if you get the broadest measures, a country-wide price and a country-wide measure of income, the ratio is about 4 ½ and it hasn’t moved much either way for 10 years. And that is higher than it used to be, but it’s actually not exceptional by a global standard as far as I can see." What he was quoting here was the analysis by Rismark International and RP Data on housing affordability. To measure home affordability you need to compare all incomes across Australia with all home prices across Australia – city and regional. Unfortunately a raft of industry bodies don’t do that and it produces spurious outcomes.

The bottom-line is that Australian home prices aren’t so extraordinary after all. Once foreign investors start focussing on the facts rather than fiction then perhaps a few more dollars will start flowing Down Under. Because it is a concern abroad, and it’s not being helped by misinformation."
 
Do you know how they get to 4 1/2 times multiple? Seems too low considering wages are i think about $65k average and house are circa $600k average price.

I know you're going to say dual incomes etc. I just want to know how they get to 4 1/2 times.
 
Do you know how they get to 4 1/2 times multiple? Seems too low considering wages are i think about $65k average and house are circa $600k average price.

I know you're going to say dual incomes etc. I just want to know how they get to 4 1/2 times.

States a country-wide price and a country-wide measure of income.

I would like to see figures they used.
 
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