Time to sell? Time to get out of debt?

I must admit I am getting nervous now. House prices look to drop over the next few years, as growth in USA is minimal, europe is going to go into a depression, and china is also slowing. Are we on the edge of the great collapse?

I don't know, Ive diversified enough into gold and cash to hedge against some worldwide financial implosion. But its getting really scary. If the ECB allows europe to collapse, a 20 - 30% fall in house prices here is not unrealistic.

Is everyone here still bullish? Im prob. going to keep the properties and hope for the best, but if the world spirals into a deflationary environment, the leverage in houses will collapse, and it will ruin anyone with large amounts of debt.

What is the position of the posters here?
 
I'd agree it's looking more disconcerting by the day, but why sell?

Rents will continue to climb and continue to service your loans, and your property prices will eventually recover and deliver CGs.

Although, you might be thinking you could make better CGs by selling out and investing in other sectors (gold?), other markets (OS?) or just sitting on the cash for the better property buying opportunities quite likely to come if things go seriously south in the global economy. But will the banks be lending then?
 
:)
hey good for you Lizzie! It is my dream still.

Hi Daniel,

I bought and sold a few properties in NZ and made a quick buck and it was my purpose to do so....the market was on the up at the time.

However, yy strategy has mostly been to buy and hold, and with that, I am fully aware of market swings....and I know you are too. You need to redifine your strategy and ask yourself what your initiative was for purchasing property in the first place.

The lower end swung back up last year.....one of my properties was worth $100k more than it was the previous year. It will drop again....and rise again...

Regards JO
 
Hi, I am not talking about business cycles or market swings, I was always okay with that.

What I am talking about is a plunge in prices that will take a decade or so to recover from.

About rents increasing, how does that happen if the financial world collapses? Unemployment will skyrocket, which will result in rental yeilds going down, not up.
 
As in the early 90s, rent stagnate or reduce in a period of recession.

People move to less expensive housing, double up with friends or move back with relatives.
Marg
 
I must admit I am getting nervous now. House prices look to drop over the next few years........

Daniel, you've been posting your 'nervous Nelly' stuff on the forum here for years:rolleyes:

Back in 2/2010 - almost 2 years ago, you posted this:
http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showpost.php?p=632885&postcount=1
under the heading of "Is the property market about to bust?"

If you're that nervous, I really don't know if you're cut out to be an investor in all honesty. You have to 'get a grip', IMO. Otherwsie buy a gun, and a farm, and some gold. :cool:

It will all be OK.....really it will.;)
 
It's completely up to your personal situation.
If you have a high LVR and poor cash-flow. Sure have concern.
If you have a high risk of being made redundant and a neg cash-flow portfolio.
Again concern is warranted.
If you are just a few years off retirement or have poor health that could effect your work ability. Show concern.
But if you have an investment view beyond 5-10 years.manageable cash-flow, secure job or easily replaceable job, many work years ahead of you and buffers in place.than any of these should see you through. I'm not saying property is the best investment in coming years . I'm not saying people won't get burnt. I'm saying most will survive this. Things will recover and life goes on. It's just your personal situation that must be considered and everyone is different.
 
I don't know, Ive diversified enough into gold and cash to hedge against some worldwide financial implosion. But its getting really scary. If the ECB allows europe to collapse, a 20 - 30% fall in house prices here is not unrealistic.
And what makes you think that will happen? Cash will be much more useful than gold, but I suggest you stock up on canned food if your that concerned.
Many houses have already "collapsed" 20-30% and more.
Controlling and eventually getting out of debt should be the goal from day one. 90%+ continuous LVR on a large portfolio is just a matter of time when the grim reaper appears.

Is everyone here still bullish?
What is the position of the posters here?
I'm not sure which forum your referring too, as mine and others postition has been very clear for a few years on this forum, your just the late comer to the party.
 
As long as my investment properties sit there generating more money than the cost of holding them, I'll let them continue to run.

I don't think Australia is going to see a US style property crash. We've got too much going for us.

Harder times on the way, sure, but nothing to be too scared of if you identify and manage your risks.
 
Probably it will be somewhat different this time than 1930's. Sure there may be deflation, but in the 30's there was nothing that could be done about it. Money supply was pegged to gold. This time around they will continue printing phoney money to inflate their way out, but when the economies eventually do pick-up, BAM, hyper-inflation. That's what will pay off those CF+ IPs.
 
This bloke here agrees that it will be different to the 30s too: As in worse.

The most damaging threat out of Europe is clear: a global financial crisis that dwarfs that of 2008, a worldwide recession worse than the Great Depression, and the risk that modern liberal capitalism itself could collapse. That's an ugly list of bad options.

But is it really likely that we could wind up there from here?

Unfortunately, yes. Though most U.S. policymakers seem to think that the United States is insulated from the European economic crisis, the reality is that contagion is just around the corner. A default by a major European government -- say Italy -- would spell the insolvency of all the major banks in that country. Those banks would be unable to meet their obligations to other banks around Europe, causing those banks to go under. In turn, those banks would then be unable to meet their obligations to U.S. and Japanese banks, causing them to go under as well. As banks collapsed, so would the supply of credit, choking off the tremendous daily flow of trade and other transactions dependent upon it. In the resulting scramble for liquidity, firms would be forced to sell assets at whatever price they could get, leading to collapse in worldwide stock and bond market values. This dissolution of wealth would mean that very few households or private organizations would be technically solvent. The value their assets commanded on the open market would not match their liabilities. The crash could be worse than 1929.

But I personally think that Europe will come to its senses and act before it lets one of its major countries default.
 
This bloke here agrees that it will be different to the 30s too: As in worse.



But I personally think that Europe will come to its senses and act before it lets one of its major countries default.

I'd like to remind everyone that the failure of the Austrian bank Credit-Anstalt made the Great Depression much much worse:

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_18/b4226012481756.htm

I wouldn't be surprised if Austria is in the cross-hairs again. Why? Austrian banks have lent heavily to Eastern Europe, especially Hungary which is now in deep trouble largely because its householders took mortgages in Swiss Francs. With the collapse of the Hungarian currency the size of these mortgages has exploded. The Hungarian government is trying to force banks (such as the Austrian banks) to take large losses. The country as a whole is becoming a basket case with the government seizing private pensions (their equivalent of super), taking control of the Central Bank and implementing media controls. They have come crawling back to the IMF recently though. And Italian banks have large exposure to Austria.

Here is a good article on the line of dominoes from Eastern/Central Europe to the West:

http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2010/12/dominoes-falling-from-the-east/

Other problems include the huge private debt in "Northern countries", especially the Netherlands (housing bubble again):

http://blogs.wsj.com/brussels/2011/12/05/household-debt-woes-dutch-edition/

Norway is another culprit here. The northern countries going down could be another trigger too.

Then there is the hugely indebted UK system which is also the world epicentre of financial engineering.

Then there is the big one in which the ECB, by taking on anything as collateral, could very well go broke if one of the PIIGS defaults.

The problem with Europe (and most of the world's financial system) is that that you try to stop one leak and another one appears somewhere else. And since everything is so hyper-connected and opaque there is no way they can control the system. And in fact if they try to control the system by say increasing banking reserves it could very well bring about the disaster feared. The problem is that by trying to stop the disaster, they simply drag more and more institutions into the mess.

One thing I find hilarious about governments is that they always seem to do the wrong thing - they bailed out the banks when they should have let them fail. However then they tried to be too clever by half by getting Greece to default on half of its privately owned debt without triggering a default event and CDSs to punish the speculators. However, of course the entirely predictable thing happened. If the sovereign default swaps are effectively worthless then the interest rate they will charge on the debt will be higher, thus triggering the current Italian crisis. And for what little gain? Idiots.

Still I do agree with the idea that they won't let any of the PIIGS default. I'm willing to bet the first country to leave the Eurozone is Germany. It is usually the strong countries that rebel because they believe they can afford to act alone.
 
One thing I find hilarious about governments is that they always seem to do the wrong thing - they bailed out the banks when they should have let them fail.

You seem to forget who's pulling the strings....
"issue and control the money of the nation and I care not who makes its laws"

I've said it before, the banks are there for their own good and will do whatever to keep their ponzi scheme going.
How do you predict their moves? Easy, just think how they could most benefit at the people's cost.

There seems to be this strange ideal that banks were'nt banks 10, 20, 30 years ago or more.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
They gave easy credit when it suited them, and they squeeze when it suits them.

If the bank lenders were in trouble and call up their loans, hardly anybody would be able to pay up.
They have no use for property so they'd have to sell it on the market and property will become worthless and they'd be in a worse situation.
The only reason the banks do anything is because it beneficial to them.
With RBA pumping $$ into them and Kevin Dudd proping them up, they can forfeit some interest payments for a while, while it keeps compounding for the customer.


06-04-2009, 01:20 AMThere has been much activity on the hush to shore up Australian banks.
RBA keep pumping $$$, government knows that most of handouts will most likely end up with them as well with debt ratio being so high, and of course the guarantees.

All the US & EU noise has also been about one thing only: avoiding bank failures.
Nobody is interested in who is guilty, who sold toxic securities, who bought them and why etc etc.
GM has been going down for 10 yrs, and does'nt really have much to do with the whole subprime, but makes a nice diversion.
The FED is not only saving the reserve bank cartel, but executing payback for those who did'nt tow the line.

14-04-2009
My guess is that the will be the hot topic for the next couple yrs round here.
Many will learn exactly why banks are hated so much over 2009/10, and how good that "good debt" really is.
 
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I must admit I am getting nervous now. House prices look to drop over the next few years, as growth in USA is minimal, europe is going to go into a depression, and china is also slowing. Are we on the edge of the great collapse?

What is the position of the posters here?

My position is if I get to the position of hitting the wall there will be another 97 out of every 100 people in front of me. If that time comes, I would be buying a gun and making a fortress of my house, stocking up on food and battening down the hatches as there would be complete anarchy I would imagine.
If you have been investing in property for a while, you have made plenty of CG to get you over the bad times. Rents are increasing, according to Alan kohler because of the increased rent demands and the decreasing of new construction. The RBA have plenty of amo left, and if things get real bad rates will go down and before you know it, that NG property you own will be cash flow positive. Even if you havent been investing for a while, things will improve just as they did after the mid 90's. That was the last end of the world as I remember:rolleyes:

I'm bit of a glass half full guy so not all doom and gloom from my perspective.
Remember that Australia is largely a culture of whiners, whingers and losers. If you take some risk, and know the fact that life isn't a cakewalk and if you want something, make it happen. If you aren't earning enough, earn more. Skills deficit, figure it out. No one owes you anything, and I'm sure not going to just give it to you.
Keep the faith
 
I must admit I am getting nervous now. House prices look to drop over the next few years, as growth in USA is minimal, europe is going to go into a depression, and china is also slowing. Are we on the edge of the great collapse?

I don't know, Ive diversified enough into gold and cash to hedge against some worldwide financial implosion. But its getting really scary. If the ECB allows europe to collapse, a 20 - 30% fall in house prices here is not unrealistic.

Is everyone here still bullish? Im prob. going to keep the properties and hope for the best, but if the world spirals into a deflationary environment, the leverage in houses will collapse, and it will ruin anyone with large amounts of debt.

What is the position of the posters here?

If you're that worried, just sell up and go enjoy a holiday while our dollar is still strong.
 
I must admit I am getting nervous now. House prices look to drop over the next few years, as growth in USA is minimal, europe is going to go into a depression, and china is also slowing. Are we on the edge of the great collapse?

I don't know, Ive diversified enough into gold and cash to hedge against some worldwide financial implosion. But its getting really scary. If the ECB allows europe to collapse, a 20 - 30% fall in house prices here is not unrealistic.

Is everyone here still bullish? Im prob. going to keep the properties and hope for the best, but if the world spirals into a deflationary environment, the leverage in houses will collapse, and it will ruin anyone with large amounts of debt.

What is the position of the posters here?

I'd suggest you head for the hills with a shotgun and a crate full of spam...
 
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Just a thought but is cash really the best way to go, if they increase the rate of quantitative easing won't cash suffer?
 
As already stated, if it really goes pear shaped and we have a credit crunch, the RBA will do its thing and get the cash rate to 3% or lower. At that point you should, like I will, attempt to grab a low rate 3 or 5 year fixed loan at 5% or whatever and your cashflow will improve markedly.

In the event you do suffer negative equity do not panic, the banks will not sell you up provided you keep making your ongoing mortgage payments. You could also just do interest only payments if you are not already doing it. When highly leveraged (ie; 80% or more) the banks require you to pay for mortgage insurance to cover them in the event just is case you do default and they have a negative equity situation on their hands.

This reminds me of Donald Trump I think in the early 90's when his real estate values dropped of the edge and he owed his banks a truck load; he convinced them not to sell him up as that would have been disastrous so all the parties just sat around for a few more years and waited for values to trend up once again.

Also the federal government will step in and just blow FHOG and other stimulus schemes around the place as they want to economy to keep on moving ahead.
 
This reminds me of Donald Trump I think in the early 90's when his real estate values dropped of the edge and he owed his banks a truck load; he convinced them not to sell him up as that would have been disastrous so all the parties just sat around for a few more years and waited for values to trend up once again.

When you owe the bank $50,000 and you default, you got a problem.
When you owe the bank $50m and you default, the bank's got a problem.
 
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