To date, around 1700 planets have been discovered outside our solar system.

[datto]

Fence, you, I and the rest of the world have been indoctrinated about time and distance from an early age. This belief fits well and makes sense in our lives.

But the reality is that it doesn't relate to the universe. How can something never end. On the flip side, nothing can be the smallest, not even an atom because they can be split, lol, and there's half an atom! halve that and you get a quarter.

 

[devank]

We are limited to what we feel & what we know. Just because we don't understand or we can't explain that doesn't mean certain existence isn't true.

 

[Richard Feynman]

On the flip side, nothing can be the smallest, not even an atom because they can be split, lol, and there's half an atom! halve that and you get a quarter.

To be specific, the constituent components of atoms are protons, electronics and neutrons.

The constituents of those are quarks, and leptons.

Beyond that, we're not yet able to measure. Some theorists hypothesise strings make these particles up. But that also requires 11 dimensions to exists. Which is possible. But not demonstrated.

 

[datto]

RF that is spooky.

 

[The Fence]

I'm not disputing the facts given to date at all.

I can't believe you are suggesting that.

I'm putting out there that there is something way bigger than we can imagine and or comprehend, as you just agreed to above.

Science can only deal with what is in front of it. But I'm saying that front is never ending. Can't I have an opinion?

Settle and stop the personal attack please (snake oil salesman).

 

[VYBerlinaV8]

A good understanding of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics wouldn't go astray either.

A good understanding of quantum mechanics? Quantum physics is an area about which humans are only just starting to learn. We have maths that tells us about how things should work, but there are things in quantum physics that are very non-intuitive compared with newtonian physics, and for which we don't have a real explanation.

As for the God question, I am firmly of the belief that science and God do not occupy the same scope, although there is definite overlap. Just because science can't explain the concept of a higher being doesn't automatically make it false. Science also can't explain why quantum entanglement works, but we know it does.

 

[Aaron Sice]

This type of thing dispels religion for me. Its impossible for us to be alone in this universe and not feasible for a mystical being in the clouds to have created life in multiple places.

clearly you haven't read spiderman.

if you had, you'd know that he was a real person because someone got a great idea to write a book about it.

 

[Richard Feynman]

This thread is amazing. I'm glad I started it.

Now, for something relevant and breathtaking -- Enceladus in high resolution, false-colour glory:
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap140406.html

And for good measure, another, visually stunning image -- part of the Veil Nebula; a supernova remnant (exploded star):
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap140404.html (hydrogen is red, oxygen is blue)

 

[MichaelW]

This thread is amazing. I'm glad I started it.

Agreed!

You smart people might be able to help me with this issue I have with my understanding of science and the universe as we currently comprehend it...

1. The Universe is infinite.
2. The Universe originated at the Big Bang and is expanding.

I find those two premises mutually exclusive and incongruent. How can anything be infinite if it had a fixed point of origin (approximately 13.8 billion years ago) and a rate of expansion? By definition that makes it finite, regardless of the rate of expansion and that this is varying over time.

Ah well, clearly I don't have a head for science.

All very interesting though. Also begs the question posed previously about what space the universe is expanding to fill. By definition it must be something beyond the scope of our universe as this is expanding into that. That then could be an alternate universe (being displaced/restricting) or the absence of matter (nothingness/void). All very interesting...

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Aaron Sice]

Hi Michael.

infinity is explained like this. it's only a number, a mathematical theory, like zero - used to explain holes that cannot otherwise be explained.

pretend that the number ten - 10 - is the biggest number that ever existed.

ever.

that makes it infinity.

so start with 10.

10.

now add one for the new biggest number ever - or the new infinity.

11.

now take one away. 11 does not exist anymore. it can't, because there is only 10.

10.

take away another and remove it from existence.

9.

and so on.

8.
7.
6.
5.
4.
3.
2.
1.

now, 1 is the biggest number that can ever and will ever exist because you've removed anything higher than it.

now take away one.

0.

this is why infinity can be nothing and everything all at the same time, across multiple planes of spacetime.

the alpha and the omega.

the be all and end all.

the nothing and the everything.

 

[nhg]

Our brains are unable to comprehend nothingness. That is what the universe pretty much is. A whole bunch of nothing with the very rare spec of a planet just floating outwardly from either one or many points of origin.

Trying to grasp it is just a mind fk. It will be like trying to silence the little voice in your head that chatters away incessantly. *What little voice in my head* you hear... that little voice.

Science is simply putting together 'laws' and 'facts' using what little we can grasp using our limited observational abilities. Having tottered on both sides, I see strong ties in the union of 'true' science and religion. Both in any extreme are simply dogmatic.

Even in my religions scriptures it states whatever you think God is, it isn't. So trying to imagine him as some being watching us from above is irrational to me as is saying in definite terms that there is no God as it can't be observed using our limited observational skills.

As a previous poster quoted, 'I KNOW NOTHING' lol. I can only have faith. Though I do enjoy a healthy open minded dialogue around our existence.

What little I can get my head around is we have been on this planet for almost no time and are only a relatively short time away from writing ourselves out of history due to our lust for money.

 

[devank]

So.. this whole thread is about nothing (everything)? I was laughing when George Costanza was saying it

 

[The Fence]

Our brains are unable to comprehend nothingness. That is what the universe pretty much is. A whole bunch of nothing with the very rare spec of a planet just floating outwardly from either one or many points of origin.

Thankyou...basically what I have been trying to say.

Im glad the discussion is now catching onto it.

Now, when I see a doco from Mr Attenborough and view the most amazing and beautiful, and sometimes "ugly" animals, organisms, plants and terrains on our little rock floating about the universe and put this into perspective of the "nothingness" then thats when I truley come to the conclusion we have absolutely no idea why, when and how we were created. No matter how much science attacks it, it's way way too big.

Dont get me wrong, science is why we know about all the things we know, but there is something forever lurking beyong our means.

I prefer to just be amazed and appreciate "it".

 

[nhg]

i prefer to just be amazed and appreciate "it".

*loud James Brown voice*

Can i get an amen?!

Amen!!!

 

[The Fence]

*loud James Brown voice*

Can i get an amen?!

Amen!!!

Yeah...!
I feel good........♫♪♭♩

 

[Richard Feynman]

Agreed!

You smart people might be able to help me with this issue I have with my understanding of science and the universe as we currently comprehend it...

1. The Universe is infinite.
2. The Universe originated at the Big Bang and is expanding.

I find those two premises mutually exclusive and incongruent. How can anything be infinite if it had a fixed point of origin (approximately 13.8 billion years ago) and a rate of expansion? By definition that makes it finite, regardless of the rate of expansion and that this is varying over time.

Ah well, clearly I don't have a head for science.

All very interesting though. Also begs the question posed previously about what space the universe is expanding to fill. By definition it must be something beyond the scope of our universe as this is expanding into that. That then could be an alternate universe (being displaced/restricting) or the absence of matter (nothingness/void). All very interesting...

Cheers,
Michael

I know it's a stretch, but your questions are addressed in Lawrence M. Krauss's "A Universe From Nothing". A highly recommended read. It also deals with other questions such as "What was there before the big bang?".

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

infinity is explained like this. it's only a number,

"When we talk of real infinities, we're talking about a quantity larger than any number. No matter what number you have in mind, infinity is larger." Carl Sagan

Not attacking you Aaron, just wanted to clarify that. It is literally impossible for 'infinity' to be a number.

nhg - YOUR brain may not be able to comprehend 'nothingness' but scientists have comprehended nothingness for quite some time.

The Fence, the more you post, the more I suspect you are attempting to insert the concept of a higher power into the discussion. Unlike VY's statement, science and religion most certainly DO NOT overlap. Science is based in reality, religion is based in faith (being the complete absence of reason). They could not possibly be any more opposite.

Now, everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want, I respect that. But I will not stand by and allow anyone to suggest that there is any sort of overlap between observation, experimentation and presentation of facts and evidence with the assertion '*insert name of fictional character from any number of cultural fairy tales* did it'.

Religion was created as a result of people observing natural phenomena and having no other answer, stated that a god (or gods) must have created whatever it is they witnessed.

Over time, scientists have provided explanations for virtually all of these phenomena, which were previously attributed to a higher power. Frankly, based on the knowledge we have today, it confuses me that people still believe that a higher power exists.

You said "I truley come to the conclusion we have absolutely no idea why, when and how we were created". To hold this view requires you to blindly reject the mountains of evidence showing you exactly where you came from, when and how you were created. It's called cosmology and evolution, maybe you've heard of them? Yes, evolution is still a theory, however since Darwin introduced it 150 years ago, NO ONE has been able to even come close to refuting his findings, the mountains of evidence or the many discoveries that have been made since.

In fact, the religionists have resorted to a pathetic attempt to integrate religion into science via the Ultimate Joke, otherwise known as Intelligent Design. I personally find the name ironic, because in order to believe that crap requires the believer to be decidedly unintelligent.

You may try to be all mystical about it, but the fact is that all phenomena has a rational explanation. Just because not everything we as humans have observed has a rational explanation (yet) doesn't mean one doesn't exist. Scientific observation continues to accelerate at an alarming speed and I eagerly look forward to more and more discoveries.

 

[HiEquity]

Agreed!

You smart people might be able to help me with this issue I have with my understanding of science and the universe as we currently comprehend it...

1. The Universe is infinite.
2. The Universe originated at the Big Bang and is expanding.

I find those two premises mutually exclusive and incongruent.

The two statements appear inconsistent because they are. Under the most rational current theory that is supported by all the available evidence (the Big Bang Theory):

The Big Bang is not an explosion of matter moving outward to fill an empty universe. Instead, space itself expands with time everywhere and increases the physical distance between two comoving points. Because the FLRW metric assumes a uniform distribution of mass and energy, it applies to our universe only on large scales?local concentrations of matter such as our galaxy are gravitationally bound and as such do not experience the large-scale expansion of space.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

This may also help:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansion_of_space

We are used to thinking in terms of Euclidean space but General Relativity and its supporting evidence debunked that. It is far more likely that Space itself is expanding at the speed of light and in that sense it is infinite (infinite only with time) - as nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, coordinates can't exist for anything beyond the edge of space. The coordinate system itself collapses when the mathematics is applied to the question.

In that sense, it is exactly like the question of what happened a year before the Big Bang, as Richard mentions. Just asking the question proves that you don't understand the theory itself, which is fundamentally that both space and time started around 13.8 billion years ago and have been expanding ever since... and that is currently the only rational theory of the history of the universe that is supported by all the available evidence.

It took me years (and counting) to get my head around but the evidence is there for all to see. Particles can go through two separate holes at the same time. The speed of light is exactly the same regardless of how fast you are travelling when you measure it, which means time itself slows down instead. Pure randomness does exist in quantum states, yielding tunneling, which is how your smoke detector works. The facts are all there - we just have to adjust our thinking to accommodate them and all will be well.

 

[Aaron Sice]

Not attacking you Aaron, just wanted to clarify that. It is literally impossible for 'infinity' to be a number.

hence my point about being able to add or subtract numbers.

whatever you know as the largest number, add 1 and it's the new infinity.

but you can't have less than nothing (in current mathematical models) because nothing is the middle of -1 and +1.

therefore zero is equally unattainable as infinity, which makes them one and the same.

and yes - i did dull it down for conversation's sake.

 

[The Fence]

The Fence, the more you post, the more I suspect you are attempting to insert the concept of a higher power into the discussion.

Nope, not religious at all.

Just realist.

Science can decipher what they like, but there is something bigger that is unexplained.

What was before the big bang?

Who called it a "bang" was it a bang?

Really?

How can the "beginning" of time be possible ?

many of you think Im mad, and that's your perogative, but Im merely using my mind to expand on sciences discoveries.

In other words, You think Im dissing science, but no, Im not.

There will always be stuff that will never be discovered and proved up with solid irrefutable evidence.

Meanwhile we enjoy what is proved and real....in our human eyes that is.

God, who's that?

It's no body.

It's what some believe in and that is also their perogative and not to be scorned upon.