Urgent advice needed from sub-division experts

[Harris]

I need some advice regarding couple of development blocks in Res 2 zoning that I purchased in the same street over the last couple of weeks. Both blocks measure around 1200 sqm each and I plan to build 8 townhouses on them in the next few years.

The problem is that they have flash flood overlay on a quarter of first block and almost all of the next block. Have spoken to the drainage inspector at the council who says that whilst the prop with 1/4th flood overlay does not seem too challenging for sub division, I might have serious problems getting approval for 4 townhouses on the one where the whole block is under the flood overlay.

According to him, it is a 1 in a 100 years flash flood event, however there would have to be some very serious adjustments to the building plan in order to have any possibility for sub division approval.

Those blocks are on the corner of Esplanade and whilst I would pull out of anything where serious risks for development potential appear, the block sits on arguably the best and most prestigious part of the bayside suburb with clear views of the bay and I feel like taking the chance and running with it.

Block 1 is unconditional however block 2 (with complete flood overlay) is under a 10 day conditional approval for me to seek expert opinion.

I want to find out, how I can go about seeking town planners who could give me expert advice on the sub div possibility. The council inspector mentioned that I could design the t/houses without the covered/ enclosed garages and rather have open carports as a possible way of getting around the problem (however I am unsure of marketability of townhouse that costs in excess of $600k without covered/ locked garages.)

Is there anyone who has come across similar issues and might want to help me with how they sought the expert opinion and any remedies..?


Many thanks

Harris

 

[Mamaof3]

Hi Harris,

There are planning consultants out there who can do all the necessary background work and make a recommendation etc. We've used one in the past for a different reason but they are generally very helpful and often you'll find that they've dealt with a similar situation before in the same council so that helps!

Apart from them, i'm not sure who else would be of help!
Good luck though!

Cheers,
Kim

 

[gussman]

Harris,

You are probably refering to a SBO or special building overlay. What you need to do is is talk to melbourne water or council, depending on who has designated the area under the SBO. They will give you a Flood level to AHD (australian height datum) which you have to build 300mm above that for the dwelling and 150mm above for garages. To establish what the existing height is you will need to engage a land surveyor to take some levels. The biggest problem that occurs is that if the floor level has to be to high of the ground your wall heights will be to high and the wall will need to be setback further from the boundary. This in some cases can make the development unfeasable. No pint engaging a town planner. Call melbourne water yourself as first port of call, then get a surveyor to take some levels.

Good Luck, it pays to check overlays on a property before you buy it, SBO's can be a real pain in the backside.

 

[Harris]

Thanks

Already spoke to Melb water this morning and they mentioned that it is not their overlay and its the council's sbo.

Just spoke to a townplanning firm in the local area, who have thier own surveyors and planners and will be able to give me proper building feasibility and recommendations for both blocks in the next few days.

Cheers,
Harris

Harris,

You are probably refering to a SBO or special building overlay. What you need to do is is talk to melbourne water or council, depending on who has designated the area under the SBO. They will give you a Flood level to AHD (australian height datum) which you have to build 300mm above that for the dwelling and 150mm above for garages. To establish what the existing height is you will need to engage a land surveyor to take some levels. The biggest problem that occurs is that if the floor level has to be to high of the ground your wall heights will be to high and the wall will need to be setback further from the boundary. This in some cases can make the development unfeasable. No pint engaging a town planner. Call melbourne water yourself as first port of call, then get a surveyor to take some levels.

Good Luck, it pays to check overlays on a property before you buy it, SBO's can be a real pain in the backside.

 

[gussman]

Harris,

Council should be able to give you a Flood Level to AHD. Assuming this is Frankston Council (ie 1 Nolan Street) Speak to Noel in the infrastructure department (you might have already spoke to him today) he should be able to give you this info, you may have to write a formal request if he cannnot provide it over the phone. Once they give you a flood level, engage your own land surveyor, should cost 300-500 bucks. Time is of essence and you dont want to spend money you dont have to (although judging by the properties you have bought recently you must have a bit tucked away). You may want to consider that there is overlooking regs that may effect how you wish to obtain your views. Before you can undertake any feasability you need to find out how high the flloor levels have to be above the existing ground levels as this can restrict what you build. You can only build a wall on the boundary 3m average wall height, so if the floor has to be 1.2m above the ground then all walls including garages will have to be located of the boundary.

I re-iterate, 1)find out the flood level,
2)dwelling Floor level has to be 300mm above and garage floor level 150mm above.
3)Get the surveyor to determine the existing level of land and go from there.

This is how it works, talk of interupting flow paths of water etc is just usually town planners justifying the SBO. It used to be dealt with under the building regs and should have stayed that way.

Out of interest which planning consult have you used

 

[Harris]

Thanks gussman

Appreciate your valuable feedback.

I have engaged Hansen David & Associates (based in Frank Sth) for a complete planning feasibility and yes it is 1 Nolan St. I also bought 5 Nolan which is unconditional, however it has only the front quarter of the prop under sbo, which I am told must not prove too difficult to subdivide.

The planners have the required expertise (I am told) to provide me with all the details relevant to min floor height as well as any other necessary info and they would be liaising with the council on my behalf.

I did have a long chat to Noel this morning. I find talking to council people quite frustrating - Very hard to get any clear answers from them. I am not a developer myself and plan to land bank development blocks for the next 3-4 years, hence outsourcing complete feasibility.

regards
Harris

Harris,

Council should be able to give you a Flood Level to AHD. Assuming this is Frankston Council (ie 1 Nolan Street) Speak to Noel in the infrastructure department (you might have already spoke to him today) he should be able to give you this info, you may have to write a formal request if he cannnot provide it over the phone. Once they give you a flood level, engage your own land surveyor, should cost 300-500 bucks. Time is of essence and you dont want to spend money you dont have to (although judging by the properties you have bought recently you must have a bit tucked away). You may want to consider that there is overlooking regs that may effect how you wish to obtain your views. Before you can undertake any feasability you need to find out how high the flloor levels have to be above the existing ground levels as this can restrict what you build. You can only build a wall on the boundary 3m average wall height, so if the floor has to be 1.2m above the ground then all walls including garages will have to be located of the boundary.

I re-iterate, 1)find out the flood level,
2)dwelling Floor level has to be 300mm above and garage floor level 150mm above.
3)Get the surveyor to determine the existing level of land and go from there.

This is how it works, talk of interupting flow paths of water etc is just usually town planners justifying the SBO. It used to be dealt with under the building regs and should have stayed that way.

Out of interest which planning consult have you used

 

[JIT]

Good Luck, it pays to check overlays on a property before you buy it, SBO's can be a real pain in the backside.

Yep, here's some basics we covered in this thread that may be of use, though it might be too late:

http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33072

GSJ

 

[Dazz]

G'day Harris,

Might be completely unhelpful but ;

Given that the area is not that big...a titch over half an acre, would it be possible to raise the level of the natural ground layer by building a medium sized limestone retaining wall around the perimeter of the property and then infill with cheap, clean fill.

A steady procession of fully laden semi-trailers over a weekend might elevate the level of the block to an acceptable height, such that all of it is above the required 1 in a 100 yr flood level. Get a whacker packer onto the job and hey presto....

It's been done successfully twice before that I know of.

 

[Harris]

Thanks GSJ & Daz

I have taken some notes from the check list in the other thread to be included in the feasibility.

I dont have No 3, hence its not going to be a combined block yet. I have 1 and 5. No 3 Nolan measures over 1300 sqm and it would be good to be able to get that block as well to have a prime acre - Its Res 2 zone so by the time, the land value has gone up by atleast 25-30% (expecting in around 3 years) and I could get No 3 as well, I can then look at doing some development then.

Will however investigate the land fill option to raise the ground level, however not sure about its practicality since the main objection there is that there should be sufficient room for the flood water to exit through both blocks and on to the bay. Raising the level of my block might cause inundation of surrounding properties.

Thanks
Harris

 

[gussman]

Raising the land will not help if the wall heights become an issue as wall heights are measured from natural ground level. If you had all three blocks then you could set building further back from the side boundaries. Did noel give you any indication of the required floor level from AHD. Sometimetimes council will say 300mm above the kerb which in the case of Nolan street wont help because the block falls to the back. I would pressure Noel to give you a difinitive answer in writing. Its help if you know the jargon though.

 

[Harris]

update

Had another discussion with the council drainage inspector (Noel).

This is what he had to say:

1 Nolan has one in a 100 years flood level of 16.46m AHD. Front of the property is 17.76m whilst the rear is 15.699m. The block is grading from front to back.

He believes the sub-division will be very tricky based on the fact that it does not simply have the “flood overlay”, but it is in an actual flow path of the flood.

That means that whilst planning assessment might throw some challenges, the real problem is the Hydraulic assessment of the site based on the actual effect any construction will have on the surrounding properties.

For 5 Nolan, the AHD is 16.20m however the ground construction level for the current house (that I want to keep) is 19.20 m andthe level for the front of the prop is 18.6 m grading to16.8 to the rear of the block (where I plan to build 2 town houses).

Any construction would needs to take place above a min of 300 mm floor level from AHD.

Still waiting for the planning consultants to email me a cost approximate for the feasibility..! Looks like I will end up doing the whole feasibility on my own in view of the 29/6 deadline.

Harris

 

[gussman]

Often what is done on jobs like this is the developer must put in huge pipes
and drainage pits etc. The only problem is that there may not be a sufficient drain at the back of the block to handle the new drains you have put in. Another option would be slightly raised "modern style" townhouses on a steel subfloor system that alows the water run underneath. Ultimatley it will be noel that provides advice to the town planning department so his advice will be the deciding factor. Maybe ask him if there is a drainage consultant he knows that has specific knowledge of the SBO's in that area. He could talk to noel on your behalf. Depending on how much you paid it may be easier to pull out.Dont waste your time with the planning consultant at this stage. If you need a property manager for the new properties let me know I can put you on to my brother who works for a large company that handles properties all over vic, they are offering free landlord insurance I think at the moment for all new clients. Keep us posted what happens and good luck.

 

[gussman]

harris just spoke to a guy who had a block simalar to yours he spent 40k getting designs and reports etc, only to have his permit refused. You may want to consider if this site is really worthwhile.

 

[Harris]

harris just spoke to a guy who had a block simalar to yours he spent 40k getting designs and reports etc, only to have his permit refused. You may want to consider if this site is really worthwhile.

thx gussman

which block was that..?

 

[gussman]

It was in Glen Eira Council, Dont know the address, but it was found that his development would significantly alter the flow path, thus refused.