Warning; Investors Club
- Thread starter BayView
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Hehe
I have had people try to convince me to join in the Amway experience.
Most people have.
Except that these people were my parents
This was a similar "ra ra...look, it costs less to join Network 21 than it costs to do a building and pest inspection" (No, really, they used that argument), and my friend knew I wasn't interested or going to take the bait, but the underlying thought was there... "Maybe if we can break him down...he'll come and join us...".
It's amazing how short sighted some people become... either we use their strategy and systems (like TIC) or it's useless and won't work and you're doing it wrong!
If it was the best strategy in the world, then everyone would be doing it and then it would be a fairly ordinary strategy...
...and this is where I have a real problem with TIC...(if you haven't cottoned on as yet
See, once you're in the Club, (and they won't let you in unless you buy a property off them) you get bombarded with Club loans, Club finance, Club maintenance, Club PM's, Club leasing co-ordinators, Club insurance, Club solicitors, Club building inspectors.....I mean these guys are classic.
Anyway, I'm tired of this unproductive subject, begone TIC.
Hi Dazzling,
I was searching the forums for some info on a mob called Spirit of Finance and came across this rant of yours from a few months back and felt I just had to make a couple of comments.
I am a support member with TIC and have been for nearly three years. I have been a member since Aug 1999, even though I didn't buy my my first property through them until 2001, so Yes, it is possible to be a member without having to buy anything first.
You then go on to list most of the free, value added services, that we offer. You don't need to use any of them if you don't want to and as an experienced investor, you probably would not need or want many of these, but for many people time poor, as has been mentioned in this thread earlier, it is precisely what they want.
Dazz has taken a break from SS for a while... so on his behalf, I can only say "Hah! 'Value-added services'! Is that what you call 'people from whom we obtain enormous kick-backs'!" ROTFLOL
just have to be careful of what you consider yourself a 'member' of. For example, my wife probably considers herself as a member of David Jones. she is welcome to use all their services, soak up their advice and frequent their stores and facilities as much as she pleases. Benefits include free parking, coffee meetings, perfume samples at will and never under estimate the value of the colour matching support in the womens section - this alonecan save you up to $500 per year in consultancy costs.
Wow, didn't quite expect that much feedback. http://www.somersoft.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif
The DJ analogy is actually fairly apt in a couple of ways in that for an informed shopper, their services doesn't pretend to be anything other than what it is, a simple ploy to try and convince shoppers to be loyal to the brand and spend time/money in their store. At the end of the day you need to make the decision as to whether you stay and buy goods at a price point and quality that you are comfortable with.
For a person that normally shops at Aldi and is on a strict budget, probably wouldn't do much for them.
Same with TIC, it appeals to a certain demographic and therefore has a place in the shopping centre.
and no, Nathan, I'm not trying to pump the club, just trying to correct a couple of the more wild accusations. I have been a secret reader of this forum for many years, just never felt the need to burst into print before. Most regular posters (and probably the readers,too) here, have very good understanding of the issues and don't need any help or advice from me.
I was actually trying to find some information and may need to start a new thread if I can't track it down in another thread if this has already been discussed, maybe you guys can help point me in the right direction ?
Spirit of Finance, now deceased, used to set up a system (and I'm sure others do this, too GenXlifestyle, for one,I think) whereby the IP loan was not paid back and the interest just accrues. The rent goes into paying down the home loan quicker and then finally the IP when the bad debt is all gone. Meanwhile, the interest on the rapidly ballooning IP is claimable as a tax deduction.
Finally, Ozperp, thanks for going in to bat for Dazzling, I am sure he will delight in replying himself when he returns http://www.somersoft.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif
If any of the free services that we offer adds value, then does it really matter who gets paid what, in whatever form ? Is it any different to the many MB's on this forum who offer a free service to their clients and take a fee from the banks when they sell a product ? I don't really see the difference.
The DJ analogy is actually fairly apt in a couple of ways in that for an informed shopper, their services doesn't pretend to be anything other than what it is, a simple ploy to try and convince shoppers to be loyal to the brand and spend time/money in their store. At the end of the day you need to make the decision as to whether you stay and buy goods at a price point and quality that you are comfortable with.
For a person that normally shops at Aldi and is on a strict budget, probably wouldn't do much for them.
Same with TIC, it appeals to a certain demographic and therefore has a place in the shopping centre.
and no, Nathan, I'm not trying to pump the club, just trying to correct a couple of the more wild accusations. I have been a secret reader of this forum for many years, just never felt the need to burst into print before. Most regular posters (and probably the readers,too) here, have very good understanding of the issues and don't need any help or advice from me.
I was actually trying to find some information and may need to start a new thread if I can't track it down in another thread if this has already been discussed, maybe you guys can help point me in the right direction ?
Spirit of Finance, now deceased, used to set up a system (and I'm sure others do this, too GenXlifestyle, for one,I think) whereby the IP loan was not paid back and the interest just accrues. The rent goes into paying down the home loan quicker and then finally the IP when the bad debt is all gone. Meanwhile, the interest on the rapidly ballooning IP is claimable as a tax deduction.
Finally, Ozperp, thanks for going in to bat for Dazzling, I am sure he will delight in replying himself when he returns http://www.somersoft.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif
If any of the free services that we offer adds value, then does it really matter who gets paid what, in whatever form ? Is it any different to the many MB's on this forum who offer a free service to their clients and take a fee from the banks when they sell a product ? I don't really see the difference.
Would you care to provide a list of these "Free" services that are on offer and provide an example of a typical property that TIC would sell.
I would then be interested to see how much a comparable property would sell and rent for in the area, that TIC had no influence with.
That would truly show how much these "Free" services have cost the end user
Dave
Just have to ask "TB",what does a support member of the company that you have been with for a long time do?,as nothing is free in this world and why compare yourself to the "MBs"in this site,generally most of the posts
by MB in this site are too help the new people,and i have never read any of their posts tainted with moral blame or deception they just give the facts pure and simple..willair..
Do you have a specific question about debt recycling? It's a very basic and common strategy. You'll find plenty of info on it if you google it.
As a support member Willair, I do exactly what the title suggest, support. I act as a mentor passing on my accumulated wisdom and support my members who are trying to become financially independent through property. In much the same way that you people on this site do.
And Yes, I get paid in exactly the same way that an MB gets paid. When he sells a loan to his client, he gets a commission. When I help sell a member a property, I get a proportion of the commission.
As we seem to be happy with analogies here, so let me draw another:
The credit Union to which I belong has a car buying service. You tell them what make, model and price range you want and they'll find one. They obviously have a pool of dealers that they use to source the vehicle and they take a commission off the selling price for their trouble. This is a FREE service to the CU member. Does the member get a good deal ? Maybe. Do they save a lot of time and energy and hassle with sourcing and then negotiating for said vehicle ? Most definitely.
And Yes, I get paid in exactly the same way that an MB gets paid. When he sells a loan to his client, he gets a commission. When I help sell a member a property, I get a proportion of the commission.
As we seem to be happy with analogies here, so let me draw another:
The credit Union to which I belong has a car buying service. You tell them what make, model and price range you want and they'll find one. They obviously have a pool of dealers that they use to source the vehicle and they take a commission off the selling price for their trouble. This is a FREE service to the CU member. Does the member get a good deal ? Maybe. Do they save a lot of time and energy and hassle with sourcing and then negotiating for said vehicle ? Most definitely.
Thanks Hoffy, it was the correct term to do a search which was eluding me.
TB, I think what offends some of us is that TIC try to make it sound like they're on the buyers' side of the financial transactions. The use of the word "club", for one, and the use of the word "support member" (which, if you're receiving a commission, is actually "salesperson who also gives advice"). It's these misleading terms, designed to obscure the fact that they're a business, selling products for commission, that really irritates me.
We know that mortgage brokers source loans for a commission, and mortgage brokers are up-front about that. But if a mortgage broker called his business "The Borrowers Support Club", for example, I'd have a problem with that, because it implies a function, and motivation for existence, quite different to its primary purpose.
If TIC wanted to call themselves "The Investors One Stop Shop" or something like that, and were open in saying that they're a business that brings together all the specialists required to facilitate a property purchase, for a fee, then I'd have no problem with them. Just don't use the word "free", and don't pretend that this is a "club" whose primary aim is to help investors.
We know that mortgage brokers source loans for a commission, and mortgage brokers are up-front about that. But if a mortgage broker called his business "The Borrowers Support Club", for example, I'd have a problem with that, because it implies a function, and motivation for existence, quite different to its primary purpose.
If TIC wanted to call themselves "The Investors One Stop Shop" or something like that, and were open in saying that they're a business that brings together all the specialists required to facilitate a property purchase, for a fee, then I'd have no problem with them. Just don't use the word "free", and don't pretend that this is a "club" whose primary aim is to help investors.
I wouldn't bag the Investors Club as some people (like me) wouldn't be where they are now without this organisation. I bought a great unit in Kedron from them about 8 years ago. It cost me $156,000 and is now worth close to $400,000 - rents for $350 a week. I was very happy with the support member who assisted in getting me a free quantity surveyor's report and discounted landlord insurance. I know that there were conflicts of insurance but it didn't disadvantage me.
Like all organisations there are the good and not so good so please don't bag all "support" members just because of the negative press that TIC got a few years ago.
Like all organisations there are the good and not so good so please don't bag all "support" members just because of the negative press that TIC got a few years ago.
Ozperp,
Whilst I have no control over what my organisation is called, nor my designation within it, I also do not think that, as an organisation, we ever try to hide the fact that we are there to sell our members a property and that we derive a benefit from doing that. I certainly don't with any members that I have interaction with, be it at meetings or via email.
The dictionary definition of a club is: a group of persons organized for a social, literary, athletic, political, or other purpose.
In this case, as you rightly point out, we are organised as a business that brings together all the specialists required to facilitate a property purchase, for a fee. That fee is paid for by the seller, so any further benefits to the purchaser such as discounted products and free services are a bonus.
As far as I am concerned, it is a win-win situation if I can help someone to buy a good property through the club and earn some money whilst doing it.
As well as the monetary reward, I also get a deal of quiet satisfaction from seeing people with the correct financial set-up on the road to financial independence, so yes, while there may be some degree of conflict between helping the buyer as well as myself, I don't see that it is any different to that between anyone else selling goods or a service.
The benefits to the seller if he sells you something is implied if not always explicitly stated. Your friendly local bank manager will try to sell you a range of goods or services if they get the chance and I know without being told that there will be a benefit to them in one form or another.
You go with who you trust, in most cases, be it your local garage repairing your car or a store to buy something because that store has a reputation to uphold in terms of the quality of advice and product sold, in the hope of a loyal customer and repeat business as well as word of mouth referrals.
Whilst I have no control over what my organisation is called, nor my designation within it, I also do not think that, as an organisation, we ever try to hide the fact that we are there to sell our members a property and that we derive a benefit from doing that. I certainly don't with any members that I have interaction with, be it at meetings or via email.
The dictionary definition of a club is: a group of persons organized for a social, literary, athletic, political, or other purpose.
In this case, as you rightly point out, we are organised as a business that brings together all the specialists required to facilitate a property purchase, for a fee. That fee is paid for by the seller, so any further benefits to the purchaser such as discounted products and free services are a bonus.
As far as I am concerned, it is a win-win situation if I can help someone to buy a good property through the club and earn some money whilst doing it.
As well as the monetary reward, I also get a deal of quiet satisfaction from seeing people with the correct financial set-up on the road to financial independence, so yes, while there may be some degree of conflict between helping the buyer as well as myself, I don't see that it is any different to that between anyone else selling goods or a service.
The benefits to the seller if he sells you something is implied if not always explicitly stated. Your friendly local bank manager will try to sell you a range of goods or services if they get the chance and I know without being told that there will be a benefit to them in one form or another.
You go with who you trust, in most cases, be it your local garage repairing your car or a store to buy something because that store has a reputation to uphold in terms of the quality of advice and product sold, in the hope of a loyal customer and repeat business as well as word of mouth referrals.
Real Estate Agent................Licensed
Mortgage Broker.................Licensed
Financial planner.................Licensed
TIC support member ????? Win-Win
Dave
Real Estate Agent................Legally obligated to represent the interests of the seller
Mortgage Broker.................Certainly, that's why I use them and recommend that my members do
Financial planner.................How many do you know that recommend property as a viable option ? There is nothing in it for them. Don't you read the financial pages of the newspapers ?
TIC support member ????? Knowledgeable, experienced, supportive, free - Win-Win ??? Yes, I believe so.
Mortgage Broker.................Certainly, that's why I use them and recommend that my members do
Financial planner.................How many do you know that recommend property as a viable option ? There is nothing in it for them. Don't you read the financial pages of the newspapers ?
TIC support member ????? Knowledgeable, experienced, supportive, free - Win-Win ??? Yes, I believe so.
I would be interested to know what the knowledge and experience is
I live in a house and I bought a house therefore I can advise people on what sort of property to purchase (as long as its one that I have for sale)
of your product, until the sale is done
disguised fees and commissions added in to the cost does not mean free
I'm sure it is, for you
Got a disclaimer to go with that advice?
Please, don't disguise TIC for what it is, an organised sellers group pushing product that they have, that may or may not be any better than other product in the area.
Potential buyers should do their own due diligence including comparing other comparable listings in the area via other REA's, vacancy rates for the area , job prospects, where the rental money will come from and management fees to name a few
But, like Peter said in another thread you are in on
Dave
you could have thrown a dart at a map Oz to get those sorts of returns 8 years ago though.
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