Westpac's Double Standards

Out of frustration, I had sent this email to our Home finance Manager.
Nice guy. He was apologetic, but could not do anything as his hands are tied.


Hi Chris,

Good day!
As I dont have the names or email addresses of the smart guys in the Treasury department sitting in 275 Kent Street Sydney, so I am forced to write this email to you, unfortunately.
Our relationship goes a long way with 6 of my Investment property Loan accounts with Westpac. That is a majority of my small portfolio of Investments. We trusted your advise and the Westpac brand.
But unfortunatly the brand has let us down. And let us down by far.

The Interest rate hike of 45 bps against RBA's 25 bps is sheer corporate greed and pathetic negligence to the customer's feelings.
The folks at the Interest Rate Department of Westpac and their management need to realise business is about ethics, not just commerce.
I have worked in various banks for the last 15 years on the Treasury and Capital markets domain area. And I understand a thing or two about Interest rate settings and the cost of funds.

In 2008, when the Reserve bank (RBA) dropped its Interest rates in a hurry to fuel the stalling economy, Westpac passed only a portion. When your uninitiated customers asked "Why not pass the full rate cut?",
Westpac said that the cost of capital to fund the Loan book were too high as they were borrowing in both the Domestic Market and the International market. That is, though the Domestic Interest rates were falling, overseas Interest rates were still high, which is why they are unable to offer the same spread as RBA.

Fine, we bought that, and said yep Westpac must be dealing in more than just one Money market, afterall they are an International player.

And now in the last quarter of 2009, as the economy is picking up momentum and RBA wants to curtails the rising inflation it hikes its Cash rate by 25 bps to 3.75%. And what does Westpac do? Whack it's customers (read 'suckers') with a 45 bps hike to the Standard Variable Rate taking it effectively to 6.76%

Can I now ask "This time which International money market is Westpac borrowing from to fund the loan books? Timbuktoo I guess!"

Mate, either the guys in your swanky high rise office think their customers are dumb, or that they are outright greedy. I am guessing it is Bonus pay time!

By the way, did our dear Westpac ever care that the smaller lenders like RAMS, Aussie and Homeside were, on average, 22bps below for this entire year. This is the 'actual' difference for a borrower.

And now after this 45bps hike where do you think the competition stands?
As I am reeling with disgust on this issue, what was a double whammy was last night's press release from Head quarters.
Some honourable member of the Westpac mangement decides to talk on behalf of the customer and says "they will not be leaving Westpac".

Whoa, what a Hope! eternal optimist he must be!
Good luck and thanks for the Xmas present.

Cheers,
 
Gentle Chief

I like your work, as i'm sure everyone (banking CEO's aside) does.

Can they tell me why (and i'm taking figures out of my bottom here, so the "analysts" amongst us are welcome to dispute them) when spreads have dropped 100 points from where they were at the worst of the crisis, they are still increasing their rates?

Let's not forget they didn't pass on all of the rate cuts, and I'm pretty sure we are getting close to an increase of almost 1% against what the spread was against the official rate. i.e. before the crisis they were x% above the reserve and now all the competition has been wiped out, the spread is x+1%.

I'm a bit disappointed, but perhaps not quite as angry as you. I guess I just expected this to occur, once the competition was removed. If you think of the "big" competition, both bank and non bank, over the last 5 years, it would look like this:


  • Bankwest
    St George
    RAMS
    Aussie
    Citibank
    Macquarie Bank

The first three have been bought by the big 4 and the last 3 aren't lending any more (not actually sure what Aussie are up to?)

There's a few survivors like BOQ, Suncorp and some credit unions, but they are just fringe players.

In short, what would Maccas do if HJ's stopped selling burgers? I'm guessing any sort of Angus would cost more than $10...
 
So for now NAB are the "good guys" in the banking world.

Earlier this year they were being blasted by our WayneySwan (their new best friend) when they failed to pass on ANY of a .25% interest rate cut.

It's swings and roundabouts.

I reckon they take it in turns to be the bad guy and make the rest look better.
Marg
 
Im not sure why everyone is getting so emotional, the first rule in business or investment is not to get emotional because it hurts you in the end.

The second rule is not to be so shortsighted.

The only thing the NAB is trying to do is lock in as many customers as possible by giving people teaser rates, but they will sooner or later recover those losses made in making their products a little more attractive than what the other banks are offering. Its not a question of 'if' but 'when'.

Banks are not a charity. Period.

People should be well aware by now they act like predators to secure profit.

In the end it all evens out.
 
I have 5 variable as over the long term you usually pay less than on fixed. i had the stats for this somewhere - Ill try and dig them out.

For me - as I have a buffer, variable will always be first choice
 
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gentle_chief, can i use your letter and send that to my lenders??? pleasee... i'll chnage the necessary details :p

good job!
 
Out of frustration, I had sent this email to our Home finance Manager.
Nice guy. He was apologetic, but could not do anything as his hands are tied.


Hi Chris,

Good day!
As I dont have the names or email addresses of the smart guys in the Treasury department sitting in 275 Kent Street Sydney, so I am forced to write this email to you, unfortunately.
Our relationship goes a long way with 6 of my Investment property Loan accounts with Westpac. That is a majority of my small portfolio of Investments. We trusted your advise and the Westpac brand.
But unfortunatly the brand has let us down. And let us down by far.

The Interest rate hike of 45 bps against RBA's 25 bps is sheer corporate greed and pathetic negligence to the customer's feelings.
The folks at the Interest Rate Department of Westpac and their management need to realise business is about ethics, not just commerce.
I have worked in various banks for the last 15 years on the Treasury and Capital markets domain area. And I understand a thing or two about Interest rate settings and the cost of funds.

In 2008, when the Reserve bank (RBA) dropped its Interest rates in a hurry to fuel the stalling economy, Westpac passed only a portion. When your uninitiated customers asked "Why not pass the full rate cut?",
Westpac said that the cost of capital to fund the Loan book were too high as they were borrowing in both the Domestic Market and the International market. That is, though the Domestic Interest rates were falling, overseas Interest rates were still high, which is why they are unable to offer the same spread as RBA.

Fine, we bought that, and said yep Westpac must be dealing in more than just one Money market, afterall they are an International player.

And now in the last quarter of 2009, as the economy is picking up momentum and RBA wants to curtails the rising inflation it hikes its Cash rate by 25 bps to 3.75%. And what does Westpac do? Whack it's customers (read 'suckers') with a 45 bps hike to the Standard Variable Rate taking it effectively to 6.76%

Can I now ask "This time which International money market is Westpac borrowing from to fund the loan books? Timbuktoo I guess!"

Mate, either the guys in your swanky high rise office think their customers are dumb, or that they are outright greedy. I am guessing it is Bonus pay time!

By the way, did our dear Westpac ever care that the smaller lenders like RAMS, Aussie and Homeside were, on average, 22bps below for this entire year. This is the 'actual' difference for a borrower.

And now after this 45bps hike where do you think the competition stands?
As I am reeling with disgust on this issue, what was a double whammy was last night's press release from Head quarters.
Some honourable member of the Westpac mangement decides to talk on behalf of the customer and says "they will not be leaving Westpac".

Whoa, what a Hope! eternal optimist he must be!
Good luck and thanks for the Xmas present.

Cheers,

There's a war for deposits underway.

I suspect Westpac have taken the view that it i better to create enough margin in their lending book to deliver sufficient flexibility to compete successfully for deposits in the medium term and avoid liquidity pressures.

May well be a smart move.
 
May well be a smart move.
WBC 45BPs, CBA 37BPs
It sounds and smells like greed to me.
Are they doing it because they can?
IMO yes, between them they control 50% of the lending market
Maybe they don't care if they lose some residential customers because they have enough new loans anyway and they could also concentrate on commercial lending where margins are higher?
 
Gentle Chief

On a small loan 0.1% and 0.2% don't make a lot of difference
so it's mostly their bigger customers who will feel the pain.

If they were smart they'd offer a bigger discount to their big customers and try to keep them or pehaps they don't care because they see us as a risk and want us out?

I was actually going to ask CBA for 1 refinance plus a new loan but now I'll have to see what other options are available.
 
I have started to fund my loans outside of the Big 4.

I have put one through CUA and have a good experience...I fixed one year for 5.57%.

The more of us that purposely avoid the Big 4 and seductive rate the better....more power to the little guys because without this competiton they will keep hiking rates up.

I am fortunate as I have always had a strategy of locking rates in when they are low.

I chose a strategy that was queried by some when I started fixing when viable rates were around 4.9%....I fixed for 2-3 years at 5.24 - 5.74%...it looks like I have broken even on these within 6 months (accounts for premium I was paying the higher rates were fixed in Aug and lower rates around April). Anymore rate rises and it will be pure cream!

My personal believe is that IR rises will slow the sales market...and rents will start rising again.

I
 
Im not sure why everyone is getting so emotional, the first rule in business or investment is not to get emotional because it hurts you in the end. ... Banks are not a charity. Period.
I agree. When you take out a loan, you know what market you're participating in, and we choose to take part in it. If the uncertainty of interest rate moves has a big impact on you, then you should choose fixed rates.

The lenders all have different funding sources, ratio of fixed-variable, ratio of resi-commercial loans, etc, so of course there'll be variability in the timing and size of interest rate adjustments. They're still competing in a marketplace, and I assume most of us here - as investors and presumably capitalists - trust the market to work these things out.
 
Hi Gentle Chief,

I understand your frustration and applaud you for actually taking some sort of action....For what it's worth.:eek:

I have also tried to reason/debate in this thread;[EMAIL="http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57861&page=3"]http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57861&page=3[/EMAIL]

my thoughts on Westpac's reason for the larger increase. Their increase obviously caused some disruption as far as the other 3 were concerned when you consider it took them so long to announce their stance.

It is really one big game, isn't it? :eek:

The answer is diversification. I personally use 5 different lenders.

(Perth Investor, Citibank is still lending but I understand your thoughts. ING is also a good option now with Offset accounts)

Mix them up, guys.

Regards JO
 
Swings and roudabouts.

I am looking forward to the day (in about 12 or so years) when I can pay off my last investment loan. I've never been a fan of banks (although I own bank shares).

Oh and FWIW, I have 7 property loans (and a margin loan), and none are fixed.
 
Hi,

Don't mean to be rude, but I've just spent all morning trying to respond to a letter from a customer that was like this one, and I think you are just setting yourself up to be ignored.

Its waaay too long, there's too much waffle, and not enough direct facts. Its too emotionally loaded, and there's alot of accusation and judgement on the people's characters.

Its not clear what you are actually asking for. Do you just want to dump on the guy, do you want lower interest rates, do you want the board sacked. I've got no idea from your email.

Sure, its nice to let off steam, but if you want an outcome to your complaint, I don't think that this is the way to do it.

Pen

Out of frustration, I had sent this email to our Home finance Manager.
Nice guy. He was apologetic, but could not do anything as his hands are tied.


Hi Chris,

Good day!
As I dont have the names or email addresses of the smart guys in the Treasury department sitting in 275 Kent Street Sydney, so I am forced to write this email to you, unfortunately.
Our relationship goes a long way with 6 of my Investment property Loan accounts with Westpac. That is a majority of my small portfolio of Investments. We trusted your advise and the Westpac brand.
But unfortunatly the brand has let us down. And let us down by far.

The Interest rate hike of 45 bps against RBA's 25 bps is sheer corporate greed and pathetic negligence to the customer's feelings.
The folks at the Interest Rate Department of Westpac and their management need to realise business is about ethics, not just commerce.
I have worked in various banks for the last 15 years on the Treasury and Capital markets domain area. And I understand a thing or two about Interest rate settings and the cost of funds.

In 2008, when the Reserve bank (RBA) dropped its Interest rates in a hurry to fuel the stalling economy, Westpac passed only a portion. When your uninitiated customers asked "Why not pass the full rate cut?",
Westpac said that the cost of capital to fund the Loan book were too high as they were borrowing in both the Domestic Market and the International market. That is, though the Domestic Interest rates were falling, overseas Interest rates were still high, which is why they are unable to offer the same spread as RBA.

Fine, we bought that, and said yep Westpac must be dealing in more than just one Money market, afterall they are an International player.

And now in the last quarter of 2009, as the economy is picking up momentum and RBA wants to curtails the rising inflation it hikes its Cash rate by 25 bps to 3.75%. And what does Westpac do? Whack it's customers (read 'suckers') with a 45 bps hike to the Standard Variable Rate taking it effectively to 6.76%

Can I now ask "This time which International money market is Westpac borrowing from to fund the loan books? Timbuktoo I guess!"

Mate, either the guys in your swanky high rise office think their customers are dumb, or that they are outright greedy. I am guessing it is Bonus pay time!

By the way, did our dear Westpac ever care that the smaller lenders like RAMS, Aussie and Homeside were, on average, 22bps below for this entire year. This is the 'actual' difference for a borrower.

And now after this 45bps hike where do you think the competition stands?
As I am reeling with disgust on this issue, what was a double whammy was last night's press release from Head quarters.
Some honourable member of the Westpac mangement decides to talk on behalf of the customer and says "they will not be leaving Westpac".

Whoa, what a Hope! eternal optimist he must be!
Good luck and thanks for the Xmas present.

Cheers,
 
Its waaay too long, there's too much waffle, and not enough direct facts. Its too emotionally loaded, and there's alot of accusation and judgement on the people's characters.

Its not clear what you are actually asking for. Do you just want to dump on the guy, do you want lower interest rates, do you want the board sacked. I've got no idea from your email.

Sure, its nice to let off steam, but if you want an outcome to your complaint, I don't think that this is the way to do it.
Agree.

It comes across as a whinge.... either walk completely, negotiate a bigger discount, diversify lenders or you should have fixed back in April. They are in business, just the same as you, deal with it.

There were plenty of posts here on SS warning that this was v. likely to happen, and plenty here chose to manage their risk by fixing.
 
Hi Gentle Chief,

I also wrote a letter to my personal banker at WBC, but was a tad more succinct. I wrote:

Hi *name ommitted*,

27bp more expensive than NAB is not a good look. All I can say is that WBC had better start looking after its loan book or it will lose a lot of its core customers. With the new changes the Rudd government put in place, switching costs are now a lot lower than what they used to be. I'll wait until the RBA raises rates again in Feb and see if the gap closes, but if WBC remains that far off the pace then a lot of customers will jump ship.

Regards,
Michael Whyte


I figure it never hurts to keep them on their toes. The more complaints they get from their client base the more they will consider this a risk when making calls to step out from the pack. I'll also use it to negotiate a better rate when I'm done developing and refinance it all. At present they're only giving me 85bp off the SVR.

Cheers,
Michael
 
Hi Gentle Chief,

I also wrote a letter to my personal banker at WBC, but was a tad more succinct. I wrote:

Hi *name ommitted*,

27bp more expensive than NAB is not a good look. All I can say is that WBC had better start looking after its loan book or it will lose a lot of its core customers. With the new changes the Rudd government put in place, switching costs are now a lot lower than what they used to be. I'll wait until the RBA raises rates again in Feb and see if the gap closes, but if WBC remains that far off the pace then a lot of customers will jump ship.

Regards,
Michael Whyte


I figure it never hurts to keep them on their toes. The more complaints they get from their client base the more they will consider this a risk when making calls to step out from the pack. I'll also use it to negotiate a better rate when I'm done developing and refinance it all. At present they're only giving me 85bp off the SVR.

Cheers,
Michael
Hi Michael,

Mate, I am on a 100 bps Discount off the Westpac's SVR. Across all my 6 Westpac Loans. We work very well with our Home finance manager (HFM). He is a good mate of ours.

I was using this email as a scenario backdrop for negotiating a better discount (if possible). Before I sent this email off to our home finance manager I called him up on his mobile and told him that the email which I was going to send was not a reflection of our relationship. It was meant solely for him to forward this feedback onward to his 'chain-of-command'. Which he did.

I am now invited to a meeting with the State manager this coming Thursday.
At this stage I am unsure whether the objective of getting a "higher discount" will be achieved at all, but it has opened some doors towards it.

Cheers,
GC
 
Agree.

It comes across as a whinge.... either walk completely, negotiate a bigger discount, diversify lenders or you should have fixed back in April. They are in business, just the same as you, deal with it.

There were plenty of posts here on SS warning that this was v. likely to happen, and plenty here chose to manage their risk by fixing.
KeithJ,

If it comes across as a whinge - then so be it. It don't matter, I am setting the stage up as to why I need to be looked after if they want my business. Simple.

The crying baby gets the Milk.
 
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