Why buy Negatively Geared Properties? I think the calculations are wrong

Should we buy IP in our name or in the name of the SMSF


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  • Poll closed .
Being fully invested at all times is like those old spanish galleons, large, bulky and full of treasure, but easy to sink in navel combat.

Intrinsic_Value

Nice analogy there, I'm almost fully invested but not heavily invested so I can't sink ;)

I also have income protection, life insurance, money in the offset account
and I still have cash in super for that hardship clause.....

Like most people these days I want my investments to work harder but I don't want risk.
I'll go ahead with 1 more purchase and will rethink my whole investment strategy in August when I discuss the figures with my accountant.

cheers
 
BV & JIT

What i have mentioned in this thread is just a tip of the iceberg - SMSF strategies are just too good to be true - And I have taken it upon myself to expose them - after all they are my strategies!


How to pay no income tax on rental income & pay no tax on contributions


Assume that you have a $100K from selling your investment property - or you can withdraw from your own home and say you are 35 years old and between yourself and wife have $50K in super - since the kids are young and the two of you earn only $80K (spouse works part time $20K and the other $60K) - 9% is $7200. (Since the two have been working on this wage for the past 10 years - you should have at least $50K in joint super)

Step 1 - create the fund

The last thing you can do is put that $100K in your super fund - give that money to your dad or mum who is under 65 year old - and if you are 35 - dad and mum have to be at least 20 years older or about 55 years age - pick the parent who is not working - then mum or dad will contribute this $100K in a newly formed SMSF - as non-concessional contribution - this is called "Tax Free component" - the parent will sign a biding death nomination - which means on death - the money comes to you and not to other siblings etc - since the money is "Tax Free" component - when it is ultimately paid out to you - it will be tax free in your hands.

Step 2 Roll over your super in your SMSF - balance $150K

Step 3 - Purchase IP with installment warrant

Step 4 - Put dad on pension

Step 5 - The negative will be about $7200 including depreciation - when contributions are made - 9% - no tax is paid

Step 6 - if there is more negative - salary sacrifice - dad can withdraw and give you the money to you tax free as his pension will be tax free.

This strategy assumes that dad does not have a tax problem and is under 65 years old and is not eligible for Govt. Pension

Once dad is 65 and is eligible for Govt. Pensions - check the asset test as account based pension are included in assets - up to $252,000 of assets do not reduce your Govt Pension.


Anti Detriment payment

There is no limit on how many years a SMSF can live - Section 295 - 485 of ITAA 1997 allows a deduction to the SMSF for all contributions tax paid by the member in a life time - so when a death benefit is paid - additional payment is made from a reserve account to the dependent of the member - then this amount is grossed up by the tax rate - this grossed up amount is then a deduction available to the next generation of members who can make contributions to the fund without paying any tax.

This is a very complex issue and beyond the comprehension of your suburbia accountant - you will need a SMSF Specialist accountant who can be found on the website www.spaa.asn.au

I will try and explain it with help of an example.

Dad contributes $300,000 to a SMSF - the SMSF pays $45K in contribution tax over the years - SMSF earns income - this income is not credited to any member account but to a "reserve account" - when dad dies - mum gets the balance of dads account + $45K from the reserve account as a Anti - detriment payment - this then creates a $300,000 deduction in the SMSF - this loss is carried forward - so when contribution are made by son in future years - no tax is paid by the fund. This loss in the fund can be carried forward for ever.

If dad did not set up the fund - at least you can consider to be dad for your son's.


Purchase of installment warrants instead of shares


Instead of buying shares of say CBA - the fund can purchase IW of CBA - this means for the same money - there are two shares of CBA as underlying asset of the SMSF - when CBA pays dividends - the SMSF gets 60% imputation credit instead of the normal 30% - the extra Imputation credit creates a tax shelter for new contributions....


I hope the above helps - but for some one who thinks that you lose only $5850 in owning an investment property - it is a bit uphill.


How to pay only 3% interest on PPOR

This is a very simple strategy developed by me - but for it to work - you have to have equity in your own home.

this is how it works

You are 45 years old and my house is $500K and i owe to the bank $250K at his point of time - i convert my home loan to interest only.
Then I take another loan say line of credit
please print the below - if you cannot understand the below

For paying interest for my loan of $250K - i withdraw from the line of credit - which means that i do not use income to pay interest to the bank - i use banks money (line of credit) to pay interest on $250K loan.

I pay nothing to the bank
no principal reduction and no interest payment - i live in the house for free for the next 15 years.
Now i earn say $60K including super - i now salary sacrifice $25K into super - i am left with $35K and my spouse does the same - we both have $32K each after tax of $3K each - or $64K together - we can look after our children with this $1200 + per week cash - there is no need to save - as we are both contributing $50K in super - if we have SG in our super - this $50K will pay very little tax - say 10% instead of 15% - so $45K is being accumulated for 15 years - in super - with the rule of 72 money doubles every 7 years - cumulative interest - in 7 years we accumulate $5K times 7 $315K which doubles or becomes $630K and another $315K or say about $1M

my home loan is still $250K and my line of credit is about $280K - i may have to convince the bank to extend the line of credit as the two loans together go over $500K = that should be no problem as it happens only after 11 years.

Once i am 60 years - i withdraw my super tax free and pay $530 to the bank and keep the balance - do a spreadsheet - you will find that your cost is half - the reason is simple - instead of paying 30% tax and then paying off the non-dedutible home loan (like my dinner example) - you are paying half the tax in super - then cumulating both - income in the fund and interest on line of credit - but at the end of the day - home loan is paid but you paid half the tax or in other words paid half the interest rate.

Yes, there are some legislative risks - plus interest rates may go down or up and the returns of super may not be the same - in any case - it is an interesting strategy

Manoj
 
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This is a very simple strategy...............you say

Perhaps not quite the appropriate choice of words............perhaps quite involved, with as u say a fair amount of side risk.

How does this strategy compare to the more usual debt recycle strategy using some from of income fund to accelerate it ?

ta
rolf
 
Hi Manoj
Many thanks for the explanation, this is good stuff.
When you mentioned shares you used the acronym IW of CBA
What's IW
And in your last example you used the acronym SG
What's SG?
Cheers
Bill

How to pay only 3% interest on PPOR
- if we have SG in our super - this $50K will pay very little tax - say 10% instead of 15%
Manoj
 
BV & JIT

What i have mentioned in this thread is just a tip of the iceberg - SMSF strategies are just too good to be true - And I have taken it upon myself to expose them - after all they are my strategies!


How to pay no income tax on rental income & pay no tax on contributions

Assume that you have a $100K from selling your investment property - or you can withdraw from your own home and say you are 35 years old and between yourself and wife have $50K in super - since the kids are young and the two of you earn only $80K (spouse works part time $20K and the other $60K) - 9% is $7200. (Since the two have been working on this wage for the past 10 years - you should have at least $50K in joint super)

Step 1 - create the fund

The last thing you can do is put that $100K in your super fund - give that money to your dad or mum who is under 65 year old - and if you are 35 - dad and mum have to be at least 20 years older or about 55 years age - pick the parent who is not working - then mum or dad will contribute this $100K in a newly formed SMSF - as non-concessional contribution - this is called "Tax Free component" - the parent will sign a biding death nomination - which means on death - the money comes to you and not to other siblings etc - since the money is "Tax Free" component - when it is ultimately paid out to you - it will be tax free in your hands.

Step 2 Roll over your super in your SMSF - balance $150K

Step 3 - Purchase IP with installment warrant

Step 4 - Put dad on pension

Step 5 - The negative will be about $7200 including depreciation - when contributions are made - 9% - no tax is paid

Step 6 - if there is more negative - salary sacrifice - dad can withdraw and give you the money to you tax free as his pension will be tax free.

This strategy assumes that dad does not have a tax problem and is under 65 years old and is not eligible for Govt. Pension

Once dad is 65 and is eligible for Govt. Pensions - check the asset test as account based pension are included in assets - up to $252,000 of assets do not reduce your Govt Pension.


Anti Detriment payment

There is no limit on how many years a SMSF can live - Section 295 - 485 of ITAA 1997 allows a deduction to the SMSF for all contributions tax paid by the member in a life time - so when a death benefit is paid - additional payment is made from a reserve account to the dependent of the member - then this amount is grossed up by the tax rate - this grossed up amount is then a deduction available to the next generation of members who can make contributions to the fund without paying any tax.

This is a very complex issue and beyond the comprehension of your suburbia accountant - you will need a SMSF Specialist accountant who can be found on the website www.spaa.asn.au

I will try and explain it with help of an example.

Dad contributes $300,000 to a SMSF - the SMSF pays $45K in contribution tax over the years - SMSF earns income - this income is not credited to any member account but to a "reserve account" - when dad dies - mum gets the balance of dads account + $45K from the reserve account as a Anti - detriment payment - this then creates a $300,000 deduction in the SMSF - this loss is carried forward - so when contribution are made by son in future years - no tax is paid by the fund. This loss in the fund can be carried forward for ever.

If dad did not set up the fund - at least you can consider to be dad for your son's.


Purchase of installment warrants instead of shares

Instead of buying shares of say CBA - the fund can purchase IW of CBA - this means for the same money - there are two shares of CBA as underlying asset of the SMSF - when CBA pays dividends - the SMSF gets 60% imputation credit instead of the normal 30% - the extra Imputation credit creates a tax shelter for new contributions....


I hope the above helps - but for some one who thinks that you lose only $5850 in owning an investment property - it is a bit uphill.


How to pay only 3% interest on PPOR

This is a very simple strategy developed by me - but for it to work - you have to have equity in your own home.

this is how it works

You are 45 years old and my house is $500K and i owe to the bank $250K at his point of time - i convert my home loan to interest only.
Then I take another loan say line of credit
please print the below - if you cannot understand the below

For paying interest for my loan of $250K - i withdraw from the line of credit - which means that i do not use income to pay interest to the bank - i use banks money (line of credit) to pay interest on $250K loan.

I pay nothing to the bank
no principal reduction and no interest payment - i live in the house for free for the next 15 years.
Now i earn say $60K including super - i now salary sacrifice $25K into super - i am left with $35K and my spouse does the same - we both have $32K each after tax of $3K each - or $64K together - we can look after our children with this $1200 + per week cash - there is no need to save - as we are both contributing $50K in super - if we have SG in our super - this $50K will pay very little tax - say 10% instead of 15% - so $45K is being accumulated for 15 years - in super - with the rule of 72 money doubles every 7 years - cumulative interest - in 7 years we accumulate $5K times 7 $315K which doubles or becomes $630K and another $315K or say about $1

Yes, there are some legislative risks - plus interest rates may go down or up and the returns of super may not be the same - in any case - it is an interesting strategy

Manoj
Manoj,,intersting post just have to ask have you posted in this site under a different name..willair..
 
Manoj - Whilst refinance of SMSF loans is still not allowed by the major lenders and redraw does not exist, the St George resi SMSF product does have an interest off-set option which will achieve the same outcome as redraw.

Hi Mike
Is this something new?
How do I add it to my STG loan?
cheers
 
I do not understand how a $100 dinner costs $171. Doesn't a $100 dinner cost $100?

No because to get $100 cash you will need to earn $171 before tax.

So with Manoj's thinking we are better off borrowing the $100 to pay for the dinner (and pay 6% ongoing interest) and put our 171 pretax $ into our super instead.

If we are 50 years old by the time the borrowed $100 has increased to $171 we would have become 60 and would have access to our super so we can pay back the $100 loan.

cheers
 
Hi Manoj
Many thanks for the explanation, this is good stuff.
When you mentioned shares you used the acronym IW of CBA
What's IW
And in your last example you used the acronym SG
What's SG?
Cheers
Bill

IW = Instalment Warrant (in shares of CBA)
SG = Superannuation Guarantee

I would think...
 
Hi Mike
Is this something new?
How do I add it to my STG loan?
cheers

Hi BV

Offset has always been available at STG with their resi SMSF loan. Partial or 100% Mortgage Equaliser Interest Offset.


If your repayments are interest only make sure you take the 'repayment offset' option as this works to reduce the required monthly interest based repayment amount by the amount of the monthly 100% interest offset benefit, rather than reducing the loan principal.

Only down side is that STG charge a monthly fee of I think $5- for their offset a/c.

Also under the terms of the legislation and the Bank's security documentation the Bank will also have no recourse to any funds held in the offset a/c.

To open an offset a/c just go to any branch.
 
IW = Installment Warrant
SG = Super Gearing


BV = within super, I do not like a loan from STG because it is expensive - before any one signs off with any bank - it is better to get an offer from each bank like westpac / nab / STG - because the banks treat super fund borrowing as commercial lending - they assess risk case by case - which means that the interest which they offer to me will be different to you - but if our both risk profile is the same - then they will offer the same interest rate - remember you cannot refinance - putting contributions in an interest bearing account or an offset account means the same thing - but you cannot refinance!

Willair = i was pointed to this site about a week back - i have never posted on this site before - but I have presented many seminars for "investment expos" in Sydney where i may have talked about some of the strategies - I currently work as a Superannuation Technical Support for a website called www.trustdeed.com.au - they sell companies, trusts, SMSF, pension documents, bare trusts etc - which means that i have to answer to 3rd level queries from about 2800 accountants, all over the country, who use the services of the site - mostly to do with complex superannuation issues like pension / death benefits (which i specialize) etc - I had my own SMSF Specialist practice (my wife still runs it) where I was assisting over 500 trustees with their day to day issues. I am a SMSF Specialist Adviser and Auditor with about 20 odd years experience in SMSF - I also assist the solicitor who updates the SMSF deed for my site - it is a boring life - being chained to your computer and mobile phone all day.... however gives you heaps of time to do your research and complete my book titled "Migrants Handbook : How to be a millionaire in less than 10 Years of landing" between phone calls

Quite frankly there are three people who can reduce your chances from becoming a millionaire in less than 10 years, they are

1) Your employer
2) Bank - loan approval manager
3) ATO

And I hate all of them - my book is about
1) how to get rid of your employer quickly
2) play the banks game - because they say "you cannot afford" the loan because your income is low - but by keeping income high = you pay more tax
3) ATO's game is simply the structures game - that is why rich people can get away from paying less or no tax - the answer is simple "rich people keep income low and pay less tax" - they spend their own money to live on and all income is used to build capital and hence not taxed. However poor people pay high tax, never take risk, work for some one else and keep the bank happy by paying off their own home as quickly as possible ( rich people never pay back anything to the bank - no principal / no interest - because you need high income to pay off to the bank) - Rich people do not pay tax - they use the Cash-Box Strategy to hold their income. Rich people own nothing - No IP only their own home.

So if some migrant wants to know a one line answer on how to be a Millionaire in less than 10 years - here it is

"Run your profitable business with a proper tax structure with your bank manager wife"

All of the above is possible - all you need is a great team -
solicitors
accountants
Mortgage brokers
real estate agents
You should phone all of the above at least once a month... - how many do that - not many....

By the way, by rich i mean anywhere between $2M to $5M in assets plus your family home depending on your life style. If you are smart after retirement, you can get a 10% return, if all the money is in super, you will pay no tax - spending $200K to $500K can be difficult.... every year - remember that is just the fruit - the tree can be left for the next generation...

Manoj
 
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BV / JIT

Don't ask me why people do not do the correct way - we generally pursue things which are not economically beneficial.

BTW, for your answer, scroll to the top of this page and look at the poll result yourself.
 
It's already been raised to age 67 for those born after 1957, no? In my opinion, there's further risk that they'll raise it again for those born later. If the pre-1957 retirees start to run out of money and need more money from the government, there's a good chance the pension age will be raised for younger people.

Bottom line for me: by aggressively borrowing, taking the -ve gearing cashflow hits early (mitigated by higher tax rates while working) and building a larger asset base, I can live off investments well before I'm 67. Yes, tax is higher when you hold it outside super, but there are ways to manage this (family trusts, for example) and choosing when to sell.

Even if taxes really are higher overall outside of super, I'd still choose to avoid super. The pension age is too high and will likely go higher.

It's not just about the tax perks in super (which are great). It's the fact that some strategies cannot be used in super.
Alex
 
I have just read this entire thread for the third time.

And maybe I am missing something important I just cannot see any advantage in using an SMSF to purchase propert unless you are close to that retirement age anyway, and have significant funds in the super fund.

Personally I am not yet 28, and am investing with retirement in mind - but not at 60yrs old! Also I would like access to those funds eariler if need be for other things (such as my childrens educations). An SMFS would definitely not seem appropriate in this situation.

Further to this is the fact that I have less then $800 in my super in total, and that that amount is really unlikely to increase - as I like being a SAHM and will be at least until my kids are school aged. Investing in property will actually help support me to stay at home and only work casually - because I like my job, not because I have to work. The knowledge that my super is unlikely to ever be significant is actually what spurred me into the Property investment arena. If I were to decide to invest in super, I wouldn't have enough funds to do so until I was in my 40's or 50's at least (if at all). In which case I may as well go ahead and invest now and then in 20years time reivisit the issue and decide if it make sense of not then.

My DH's super is in much better condition, but still not at a point wher he could use the money to invest in his SMSF. Plus as a matter of risk management, it really is not in MY or my kids best interests for DH to holds such assets in his superfund (as much as I trust my DH not to run off with the blond next door ;) ).

From my experience, my situation isn't exacly unique to property investors - afterall we all have lives and realities that impact differently on what may be the best method towards wealth creation. I know many couples in their 20's and 30's with young kids, for who it definitely would not make sense to invest in an SMSF.

And I haven't even mentioned the fact that the rules keep on changing, who knows what they will be when I am 60yrs old (or likely older - so 32plus years) and able to access my super.

Think I'll stick with the negative gearing ;)
 
It's already been raised to age 67 for those born after 1957, no? In my opinion, there's further risk that they'll raise it again for those born later. If the pre-1957 retirees start to run out of money and need more money from the government, there's a good chance the pension age will be raised for younger people

The pension age could be raised even further if they have no money to pay people's pensions but we are not talking about them.

The plan is for us to become self funded retirees so the government's age pension is of no value to us.

Btw the age we can access our super tax free is 60 yo but we can switch to transition to retitement earlier and the exact year varies depending on when we were born.
 
Alexe / BV

You are getting confused with the preservation age which is 55 years (when you can access your super) and pension age which is going to be moved from 65 to 67 (when Govt starts to pay you Govt. Pension)

You can legally access your super even if you are 40 years old or earlier and not working in your job for 6 months or more -there are other grounds / such as financial hardship / compassionate grounds / illness etc - so accessing your super should not be your problem ....

You need to speak to a SMSF specialist accountant if you have doubt on my posts...

What is amazing is this thread has had 80 odd replies and about 1600 views in less than 2 days! like no other on this site...

Which means there is still a lot of demand for knowledge on purchasing property with SMSF - like the good old days when very few had property NG'ed and then every one jumped on the band wagon - SG (super gearing) is even more sweeter - but it will take time to convert ...
 
Bill, You might be able to access your super at 60 but I can't! I have to wait until I am 65! Luckily i am retired now! If I had put all my investing in Super I would still have another 23 years to wait.... no thanks!
 
BV

Say with $50 you buy one share of CBA
instead of that
you can buy IW of cba for $25 each
basically you put your $25 down as your own money and borrow another $25 - so with your $50 you own two shares worth $100 - but you owe $50 to the bank - same as property principle

since you have two shares - and not one - you get double the dividend and double the imputation credit.
 
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