Yeah, I got several quotes. One from a local Company who quoted me $4500 for the same thing. After getting all the quotes I rang the three (I think, from memory) that gave me a quote around the $3k mark to ask questions and Beyond said that their 1.5 system was on sale for $2k, so I got that one.
1, 1.5, 2, 3KW Solar Panel Systems
- Thread starter Brett IP
- Start date
Yeah, I got several quotes. One from a local Company who quoted me $4500 for the same thing. After getting all the quotes I rang the three (I think, from memory) that gave me a quote around the $3k mark to ask questions and Beyond said that their 1.5 system was on sale for $2k, so I got that one.
Soon.......
I've just had to send off an email confirming that we don't have any dangerous insulation (aluminium apparently) that will impede installation. I was told at the outset that installation would be around June. Nearly there! I don't mind the wait as I was told about it AND I get to save a heap.
Think there are also other issues that havent been discussed...
which is the type of system... i.e. if the water tank is on the top of the roof or on the ground level. I'd imagine this affects pricing.
As well, warranty. Not sure if I'm right but I got onto the beyond building website - looked at the warranty which is here http://www.beyondbuildingenergy.com/images/stories/Downloads/warranty card 7 30 yr.pdf it seems they cover the power of the thing up to 30 years.
It must be in most of them that as the part ages its usage decreases as well. in the case of BB if it stops working by 10% then they replace the parts.
But I dont see (and maybe I missed it) where they're not charging for the labour to fix it or guaranteeing their installation.
I suppose the question then is (regardless in who you use)... if the system dies, and they are slow in getting it installed, whats their timeframe for repairs?
My case is if my wife doesnt have a nice toasty shower then I'm going to be hearing about it... not just for a few days either...
which is the type of system... i.e. if the water tank is on the top of the roof or on the ground level. I'd imagine this affects pricing.
As well, warranty. Not sure if I'm right but I got onto the beyond building website - looked at the warranty which is here http://www.beyondbuildingenergy.com/images/stories/Downloads/warranty card 7 30 yr.pdf it seems they cover the power of the thing up to 30 years.
It must be in most of them that as the part ages its usage decreases as well. in the case of BB if it stops working by 10% then they replace the parts.
But I dont see (and maybe I missed it) where they're not charging for the labour to fix it or guaranteeing their installation.
I suppose the question then is (regardless in who you use)... if the system dies, and they are slow in getting it installed, whats their timeframe for repairs?
My case is if my wife doesnt have a nice toasty shower then I'm going to be hearing about it... not just for a few days either...
Witzl wrote
So... with a NET metered, 1.5kW grid tied solar system, on a typical household which uses around 20kWh per day.... your power bill would be reduced by:
- 3.5kWh credited at $0.52/kWh = $1.82
- 3.5kwh in reduced normal power usage at $0.19/kWh = $0.62
=== total saving approximately $2.43 per day, or $220/quarter.
.. based on QLD, net metered 1.5kw system, $0.52/kwh credits from AGL.
It will take 823 days to recover $2000 based on qld figures.
Hi skater,
I don't want to burst your bubble but,
What is the NSW credit amount per kwh?
I also think witzls figure of generating 7kw from a 1.5kw system may be a little too optimistic. I imagine Newcastle would have fewer hours of peak sunlight on average than the Gold coast. Also add the cost of a possible new meter and an opportunity cost of $100 a year had the $2000 been invested at 5%.
I am sure you will be ahead but 18 month seems a little remarkable.
In NSW it is 60c per kwh. I am in Western Sydney, not Newcastle and the amount of sunlight is probably on par with Gold Coast, but happy to be proved otherwise. My home has a large unobstucted north facing roof. I have been quoted from multiple sources that I would save, approx $1300 pa on average with a 1.5kw system.
thanks
I found some cheap ones as well.
Pls refer to this post
http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showpost.php?p=674397&postcount=18
average peak sun hours for sydney is around 4.5-5.0 per day.
In winter its more like 3, but in summer it can be up to 7 or even 8 with the right installation.
so, working on 4.5 peak sun hours.
1.5 x 4.5 = 6.75kWh.
feed in tarrif is $0.60 (actaully, $0.68 if with AGL). lets use $0.60
$0.60 x 6.75 = $4.05/day
= $1478.25
Add in efficiency losses of around 10% for inverter and cabling = ~$1330/year
Cost of the new gross feed meter is $300.
Plus skater's quoted price of $2000 = $2300
=== paid off in around 1.8 years
of course this assumes that the power consumption habits of the Skater household remain the same!! Many people fall into the trap of wasting power after they get the solar PV system installed, thinking that they have buckets of free power to use, and thus counteract the benefits of having the PV system installed int he first place.
In winter its more like 3, but in summer it can be up to 7 or even 8 with the right installation.
so, working on 4.5 peak sun hours.
1.5 x 4.5 = 6.75kWh.
feed in tarrif is $0.60 (actaully, $0.68 if with AGL). lets use $0.60
$0.60 x 6.75 = $4.05/day
= $1478.25
Add in efficiency losses of around 10% for inverter and cabling = ~$1330/year
Cost of the new gross feed meter is $300.
Plus skater's quoted price of $2000 = $2300
=== paid off in around 1.8 years
of course this assumes that the power consumption habits of the Skater household remain the same!! Many people fall into the trap of wasting power after they get the solar PV system installed, thinking that they have buckets of free power to use, and thus counteract the benefits of having the PV system installed int he first place.
While I'm not a leading authority on PV systems, I would naturally assume that the benefit of it will depend on how/where it is installed. My roof is text-book perfect according to a couple of the companies when they looked it up on Google Earth, however I have noticed, just recently, one system on the South side of the roof, when a large North face is available, and another installed on a roof which has a large tree overhanging it, meaning the roof will get little/no sun.
As far as my usage is concerned, I'm not expecting it to go up in a hurry. Remember Lil left home.
there are a number of factors influencing the total power output of solar PV modules:
- declination angle, vs angle of sun (varies according to the season)
- direction of declination in reference to true solar north
- potential shading or partial shading
- dirt on the panels (yes, their output will reduce if they are dirty!)
- surface temperature of panels (output reduces by 0.5% per ºC above 25ºC)
... plus a few more.
But the figures ive given above are a decent estimate
- declination angle, vs angle of sun (varies according to the season)
- direction of declination in reference to true solar north
- potential shading or partial shading
- dirt on the panels (yes, their output will reduce if they are dirty!)
- surface temperature of panels (output reduces by 0.5% per ºC above 25ºC)
... plus a few more.
But the figures ive given above are a decent estimate
PV systems in NSW at the moment are an obvious money maker, due to:
- a 60c/kWh gross feed in tariff, which is 10X the actual value of the electricity even taking into account peak coincidence and avoided distribution losses. Someone still needs to build and maintain the network and run the retail systems so the daytime generation price is the relevant one here.
- in addition you get the REC offset on purchase price, dropping the capital cost of the system considerably, far below it's real cost.
Taking into account both of these factors, the amount of support available for rooftop PV at its real cost is around 80c/kWh. If you can't make money in these conditions...
However, it should be noted that this situation is unsustainable. Previously govts have run subsidy schemes to show they support PV without actually letting people make heaps of money like this so it was only the true believers who would take them up. Now we are in uncharted territory where they actually make money so the take up will be truly phenomenal once people cotton on - indeed it has already started.
Ultimately, the electricity market cannot afford this level of subsidy for a large proportion of the population so the party will have to end at some point. And the amounts produced by these systems are so insignificant they won't really help do anything about real electricity demand, a large proportion of which is commercial / industrial.
With the price of large scale wholesale renewable energy currently sitting at approximately 10c/kWh, you have to wonder why govt has chosen to support a renewable energy technology that is approx 8X the cost of the large scale alternatives? I'm guessing it's something to do with politics...
We have had insulation, school buildings and who knows what else. Along comes the next bad idea and they jump straight on... Enjoy it while you can because it can't last - the numbers will see to that. When the party stops though it's gonna hurt...
- a 60c/kWh gross feed in tariff, which is 10X the actual value of the electricity even taking into account peak coincidence and avoided distribution losses. Someone still needs to build and maintain the network and run the retail systems so the daytime generation price is the relevant one here.
- in addition you get the REC offset on purchase price, dropping the capital cost of the system considerably, far below it's real cost.
Taking into account both of these factors, the amount of support available for rooftop PV at its real cost is around 80c/kWh. If you can't make money in these conditions...
However, it should be noted that this situation is unsustainable. Previously govts have run subsidy schemes to show they support PV without actually letting people make heaps of money like this so it was only the true believers who would take them up. Now we are in uncharted territory where they actually make money so the take up will be truly phenomenal once people cotton on - indeed it has already started.
Ultimately, the electricity market cannot afford this level of subsidy for a large proportion of the population so the party will have to end at some point. And the amounts produced by these systems are so insignificant they won't really help do anything about real electricity demand, a large proportion of which is commercial / industrial.
With the price of large scale wholesale renewable energy currently sitting at approximately 10c/kWh, you have to wonder why govt has chosen to support a renewable energy technology that is approx 8X the cost of the large scale alternatives? I'm guessing it's something to do with politics...
We have had insulation, school buildings and who knows what else. Along comes the next bad idea and they jump straight on... Enjoy it while you can because it can't last - the numbers will see to that. When the party stops though it's gonna hurt...
if you jump in now though, in NSW at least, the $0.60/kWh feed in tarrif is locked in for the next 7 years. So along with the handsome 5x multiplier on your first 1500W worth of RECs, if you install now you will have made a handsome amount by the end of the 7 year period, paying off the system multiple times (at least 2-3 times).
I do agree with you, this current system is not sustainable. Even in Europe they have worked this out, with Spain already dropping their generous rebates, and Germany drastically cutting back their feed-in tarrifs.
Personally, I think that the electricity providers should be looking at means of levelling out the peaks and troughs of electricity demands via storage or similar means.
As im sure you know Hi-Equity, the peak electricity demand is several times greater than the off-peak electricity demand, and as such the capacity of electricity generation needs to be much bigger to cope with that peak load, as is only running at a low fraction of full capacity during all other times of the day...... hence the recent move to TIME-OF-USE metering (aka, POWERSMART metering, as Energy Australia calls it).
After I install my PV system, I will also be looking at an intelligent inverter-charger and large battery bank to eliminate my peak-time power consumption. Basically, using a large battery bank (around 1500-2000Ah capacity) and a large inverter-charger with smart timer functionality, i intend to charge up my battery bank during off-peak periods (around $0.08/kWh), and then during peak periods (worth $0.38/kWh) i will power the majority of my household loads from the battery bank via the inverter.
The inverter-charger is a Rich Electric SuperCombi intelligent inverter-charger. It has a 3000W maximum output, de-rated to 1500W @ 70ºC.
From what i've worked out on my power consumption habits (ive been logging them for a couple of weeks now), i typically use around 16kWh/day:
- 8kWh peak
- 5kWh off-peak
- 3kWh shoulder
using this calculator below:
http://www.18rg.com.au/Solar Off Peak Power Saving Estimation Work Sheet v1.2 MAY 2010.pdf
I have worked out that just with the "off-peak" power saving of the inverter-charger and battery bank (around 1350Ah capacity), my power bill will be a measly $160/qtr.
Without the off-peak power savings, my power bill would be more like $340/qtr.
..... thats a saving of around $180/qtr.
...... then using the calculator linked to above, add in the 2.1kW solar system i am planning.
Credits from 2.1kW PV system = ~$470/qtr
Savings from off-peak power saving = ~$180/qtr
TOTAL SAVING = ~$650/qtr, or $2600/year.
- i will have power bills totalling $640/year, and
- a credit from the PV system of $1880/year
--> so in the end i will get PAID $1240 at the end of each year.
Now the off-peak saving thing is not economically viable for most people, as the parts to do it are quite expensive, and there are no rebates for doing this.
- Inverter-charger = $3199 RRP
- 1350Ah battery bank = $5799 RRP
(its cheaper for me as i get these products thru work)
I honestly think that the right thing to do from the perspective of the electricity generators would be to promote/subsidise an inverter-charger/battery storage system such as above, as it would reduce the need for them to increase their electricity generation capacity just to cover the peak load demands.
I do agree with you, this current system is not sustainable. Even in Europe they have worked this out, with Spain already dropping their generous rebates, and Germany drastically cutting back their feed-in tarrifs.
Personally, I think that the electricity providers should be looking at means of levelling out the peaks and troughs of electricity demands via storage or similar means.
As im sure you know Hi-Equity, the peak electricity demand is several times greater than the off-peak electricity demand, and as such the capacity of electricity generation needs to be much bigger to cope with that peak load, as is only running at a low fraction of full capacity during all other times of the day...... hence the recent move to TIME-OF-USE metering (aka, POWERSMART metering, as Energy Australia calls it).
After I install my PV system, I will also be looking at an intelligent inverter-charger and large battery bank to eliminate my peak-time power consumption. Basically, using a large battery bank (around 1500-2000Ah capacity) and a large inverter-charger with smart timer functionality, i intend to charge up my battery bank during off-peak periods (around $0.08/kWh), and then during peak periods (worth $0.38/kWh) i will power the majority of my household loads from the battery bank via the inverter.
The inverter-charger is a Rich Electric SuperCombi intelligent inverter-charger. It has a 3000W maximum output, de-rated to 1500W @ 70ºC.
From what i've worked out on my power consumption habits (ive been logging them for a couple of weeks now), i typically use around 16kWh/day:
- 8kWh peak
- 5kWh off-peak
- 3kWh shoulder
using this calculator below:
http://www.18rg.com.au/Solar Off Peak Power Saving Estimation Work Sheet v1.2 MAY 2010.pdf
I have worked out that just with the "off-peak" power saving of the inverter-charger and battery bank (around 1350Ah capacity), my power bill will be a measly $160/qtr.
Without the off-peak power savings, my power bill would be more like $340/qtr.
..... thats a saving of around $180/qtr.
...... then using the calculator linked to above, add in the 2.1kW solar system i am planning.
Credits from 2.1kW PV system = ~$470/qtr
Savings from off-peak power saving = ~$180/qtr
TOTAL SAVING = ~$650/qtr, or $2600/year.
- i will have power bills totalling $640/year, and
- a credit from the PV system of $1880/year
--> so in the end i will get PAID $1240 at the end of each year.
Now the off-peak saving thing is not economically viable for most people, as the parts to do it are quite expensive, and there are no rebates for doing this.
- Inverter-charger = $3199 RRP
- 1350Ah battery bank = $5799 RRP
(its cheaper for me as i get these products thru work)
I honestly think that the right thing to do from the perspective of the electricity generators would be to promote/subsidise an inverter-charger/battery storage system such as above, as it would reduce the need for them to increase their electricity generation capacity just to cover the peak load demands.
Hi Witzl
I agree with your 7 year guarantee - the incentive is to certainly jump in and lock it all in now.
Regarding the economics of storage, they are pretty difficult in reality. The retail peak / off-peak differential you posted up previously is not indicative of the underlying price differential at the large scale generation level. It is more the level that is required for consumers to actually change their behaviour and for that purpose I am all for it. A purely cost reflective strategy wouldn't cut it otherwise.
In reality, new generation capacity, in the form of gas turbines for example, costs less than $1500/kW fully installed to sit there and just fire up for the peaks. It is very hard to compete with that. As a result, the annual average peak / off-peak differential in the wholesale electricity generation market is more like 4c/kWh if you're lucky. Nowhere near enough to justify storage in any form.
In addition, in this business economies of scale trump everything. I'm not convinced having a bank of batteries in heaps of houses around the traps with their chemical storage / maintenance / safety / ventilation etc etc issues is necessarily superior to a utility scale storage system operated professionally in a secure facility. The cost advantage alone would certainly heavily favour the utility scale system. As an example, large scale PV solar farms in the 30-50MW range can today produce electricity at around 20-30c/kWh - far less than half the cost of residential rooftop systems given the same solar resource. If you are going to do PV, why muck around with these puny little systems? Same goes for the costs and benefits of storage.
Anyway, in Australia we already have storage in our hydro storage systems (Tas and Snowy Hydro) - we can just avoid the use of water overnight and schedule it for the peaks. Can't compete with that with batteries or anything else for that matter - that among other things will help cap the peak / off peak differential for some time to come...
yep - agreed it would be better applied at the large scale end of town.
That $0.04/kWh cost price differential to the providers certainly doesnt make up for the massive price difference they CHARGE you.
PEAK = $0.38/kWh
Off-Peak = $0.08/kWh
And the price of PEAK is set to go up no doubt.
Of course this only applies to you if you have time-of-use metering, otherwise you pay just a flat $0.18/kWh. I am lead to believe that in NSW, they are progressively rolling out time-of-use metering, with the idea for all residences/businesses to have it installed eventually (over the next decade or something).
This discussion is interesting
That $0.04/kWh cost price differential to the providers certainly doesnt make up for the massive price difference they CHARGE you.
PEAK = $0.38/kWh
Off-Peak = $0.08/kWh
And the price of PEAK is set to go up no doubt.
Of course this only applies to you if you have time-of-use metering, otherwise you pay just a flat $0.18/kWh. I am lead to believe that in NSW, they are progressively rolling out time-of-use metering, with the idea for all residences/businesses to have it installed eventually (over the next decade or something).
This discussion is interesting
The real savings from a dollar perspective
Are the assumptions valid to reach the conclusions made about net savings over 20 years?
Using this calculator
http://www.solarquotes.com.au/calc3/indexsavings.php
I have assumed for Brisbane
5% inflation
1.5kw unit @$3600
20 year life span
20% of electricity is consumed ,ie is not returned to the grid.
savings of 18c/kwh
80% of electricity is returned to the grid, savings of 44c/kwh
weighted average price per kwh is 38.8c
Scenario 1 daily output of 4.5 kwh (by Brisbane installer A )
Scenario 2 daily output a of 5.78 kwh (by Brisbane installer B )
Scenario 1 electricity savings of $10987 less $3600. net-savings $7387
Scenario 2 electricity savings of $14112 less $3600. net-savings $10512
or
put $3600 compounded at 6.8% ( eg your offfset account for your mortgage)for 20 years producing $13,419 less $3,600
net-savings $9,819
Are the assumptions valid to reach the conclusions made about net savings over 20 years?
Using this calculator
http://www.solarquotes.com.au/calc3/indexsavings.php
I have assumed for Brisbane
5% inflation
1.5kw unit @$3600
20 year life span
20% of electricity is consumed ,ie is not returned to the grid.
savings of 18c/kwh
80% of electricity is returned to the grid, savings of 44c/kwh
weighted average price per kwh is 38.8c
Scenario 1 daily output of 4.5 kwh (by Brisbane installer A )
Scenario 2 daily output a of 5.78 kwh (by Brisbane installer B )
Scenario 1 electricity savings of $10987 less $3600. net-savings $7387
Scenario 2 electricity savings of $14112 less $3600. net-savings $10512
or
put $3600 compounded at 6.8% ( eg your offfset account for your mortgage)for 20 years producing $13,419 less $3,600
net-savings $9,819
