A self-induced economic slowdown?

There are other benefits of having a bigger pie that can't be measured in economic value.

- Feel good factor from being a major/superpower
- Feel good factor that the world knows you
- Feel good factor that people want to come here
 
Sorry Deltaberry

(a pre-emptive apology)

There are other benefits of having a bigger pie that can't be measured in economic value.

Tell that to the 1/2 a billion or so Indian's that live in poverty.

Yeah, but their economy is bigger than ours! :rolleyes:



Feel good factor from being a major/superpower

Fwiw, Wikipedia says:

A superpower is a state with a dominant position in the international system which has the ability to influence events and its own interests and project power on a worldwide scale to protect those interests


Imho, it is highly unlikely that Australia will ever be considered a "superpower". Our population and GDP are far too small (and will likely always remain so).

Feel good factor that the world knows you

Who feels good?

Australia-wide warm-fuzzies?

On a more serious (but humorous note), check out this ad for Australia from the 1980's featuring Paul Hogan (and all about "where Australia is"). I love the ending. :D

Come and Say G'day


Feel good factor that people want to come here

I want to buy a Ferrari. Oh, that's right I am just a few dollars short (a couple of hundred grand, give or take).

Whether people want to come here or not is immaterial.

It's the number of people who actually come here and bring their dollars (and, if they stay, their skills too) that matters.
 
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Believe it or not, I actually wasn't wanting to enter this debate. The problem was that somewhere in my idiot brain I had a vague recollection of a PC report and I thought it might be of interest to those who are interested in this discussion.

*sigh*



But now I am here, I refer (below) to page XXVIII of the PC Report (part of "The Overview").

What are the links to per capita income and productivity?

As part of this study, the Commission has been asked to identify ways in which migration and population growth impacts on productivity. Although migration increases the absolute size of the economy, for the purpose of this study, economic growth is expressed in per capita terms (per head of population). In terms of the living standards of individuals (and families), it is income (and consumption) per capita that is most relevant. The limitations of using indicators such as Gross National Product (GNP) per capita and Gross Domestic Product (GDP) per capita as measures of welfare have long been recognised. Nevertheless, they do allow us to reveal much about the economic consequences of migration and population growth. The aspects not captured by such measures are considered in qualitative ways in this report.



From XXXVII

Summing up
The greater emphasis on skilled immigration has contributed to improved labour market outcomes for immigrants. Consistent with previous Australian studies and research in other countries, the effect of increased skilled migration on average living standards is projected to be positive, but small. It is also likely that most of the benefits accrue to the immigrants themselves.




Yes, Belbo, immigration = more bums on seats = a bigger economy = more demand.

But what the PC said was that basically the bigger pie is just shared by more people - as they say, "the effect of increased skilled migration on average living standards is projected to be positive, but small".

I'm not, and I don't think the PC is "anti-immigration", but what they seem to be saying is that if you want to increase your population and the alternatives are either "growth from within" (increased birth rates) or "skilled migration", it is, in an economic sense, 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.

Well, for somebody who didn't want to get into the debate, you've done a stirling job of bringing helpful insight into it. My personal and most politely-meant kudos for that.

Do be assured I would never suggest the PC was ideologically-inclined as to the merit of immigration, or indeed anything else. I expect it is an outstanding institution premised on delivering objective analysis (as best as such an ideal can ever be achieved) in all of its endeavours. My only issue is that there will always be terms of reference for any inquiry, and that it might (quite properly under given terms) have addressed productivity directly and national economic prosperity only at a tangent in this instance.

What tangent? What, more specifically, do I think this PC report is overlooking? The answer: Job vacancies.

If a company has 10 workers, let's say it will contribute $2M to economic turnover.

Now, let's assume, there is unmet demand for the output of 10 more workers from that same company, and the company imports 10 immigrants to meet that demand (because umemployed locals are not keen on those - or more likely, any - jobs).

Even if that only adds another $2M to economic turnover, profit rises (because fixed overheads simply do not rise in equal proportion to employment). And (here's the point) that increased profit level feeds back - one way or another - into additional economic demand.

Hence, an expanding economy is not a duplicate of its former self, only at a larger scale: The expanded economy benefits from efficiencies of scale. If we have job vacancies - as we most seriously do - why not fill them and benefit?

This scale issue is actually critical in global economics, as I've no doubt you are well aware: The bigger your domestic demand, the less dependent you are on international demand to ride out international economic turmoil (China being the case in point, naturally).

So big - speaking with due humility as an economics amateur - is beautiful in the end, isn't it Mark?
 
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It's the number of people who actually come here and bring their dollars (and, if they stay, their skills too) that matters.

Well that's the solution to avoiding the India path.

It's a bit discriminatory, but let's be realistic for a sec before all the lefties jump up and down because without realism, all the lefties would be eating snail droppings due to the defunct economy.

If you have $$$, always welcome. If you invest and create employment, always welcome. If you bring skills, always welcome. If you're here to draw Centrelink (ie taxes I pay), then no thx.

At the end of the day we and our parents and for some their parents (not me) collectively build a great country via our taxes (ie hard work), our skills etc. I'm happy to let people in on it if they have something to offer. But I have a big issue when I see new migrants clogging up our comission housing system and Centrelink. I'm happy to show some compassion if someone cuts my tax bill. There's a price for everything after all, even compassion.
 
I know - I always try to do charity, but then every year I get this tax bill and I'm reminded that I've probably done more than my fair share
 
Well that's the solution to avoiding the India path.

It's a bit discriminatory, but let's be realistic for a sec before all the lefties jump up and down because without realism, all the lefties would be eating snail droppings due to the defunct economy.

If you have $$$, always welcome. If you invest and create employment, always welcome. If you bring skills, always welcome. If you're here to draw Centrelink (ie taxes I pay), then no thx.

At the end of the day we and our parents and for some their parents (not me) collectively build a great country via our taxes (ie hard work), our skills etc. I'm happy to let people in on it if they have something to offer. But I have a big issue when I see new migrants clogging up our comission housing system and Centrelink. I'm happy to show some compassion if someone cuts my tax bill. There's a price for everything after all, even compassion.

No problem with that argument in this context, Deltaberry. We are talking about job-ready immigrants, of course.
 
I know - I always try to do charity, but then every year I get this tax bill and I'm reminded that I've probably done more than my fair share

Too true....you're on the same page as Steve Jobs.

'When Steve Jobs appeared before the city of Cupertino to pitch Apple's new HQ, one particular exchange with the city council caught our attention. Councilwoman Kris Wang asked, "Do we get free wifi or something like that?"
The audience laughed at her question, and Jobs responded with, "See, I'm a simpleton, and I've always had this view that we pay taxes and the city should do those things. That's why we pay taxes. Now, if we can get out of paying taxes, I'll be glad to put up wifi."
She then joked that maybe the city could use its tax revenue to buy everyone an iPad, and then Apple would give them free wifi.
Jobs then hinted that maybe he should just take Apple to Mountain View if she was unhappy. He added, "I think we bring a lot more than free wifi."
 
No problem with that argument in this context, Deltaberry. We are talking about job-ready immigrants, of course.

There's a situation I know personally. A couple from overseas came here on the point system of qualification. One will qualify but a couple of courses need to be done first but no guarantee for a job. Currently working in in a retail shop as a general hand and lost motivation to go for the qualification.

One is unable to work because an operation needs to be done then another 6 months of not being able to work after the operation. Recently their children arrived from overseas and now they're getting child support because of the single income.

How do you (or others) views this situation? Is it helping the economy in some way? This is just an example and have been hearing of a lot more similar situation.
 
No problem with that argument in this context, Deltaberry. We are talking about job-ready immigrants, of course.

And cash migrants or anyone who has something to offer.

If a migrant comes here and buys a house off an Australian, doesn't draw on social benefits and just lives here - hey I'm fine with that. That's one more consumer for the restaurants, one more user of transport system, one more user of electricity/gas/water etc and he's paying for it.

There is something seriously wrong with our policy when there are - without being too racist - so many non-English speaking people drawing social benefits in the housing commission. Ever been in one? I've been in many. Where's the value add from these people?

And here we were jumping up and down about Chinese buying up our houses not long ago (in 2009 and 2010). At least they don't draw on our social system. For very $ they spend here, it flows back to the economy, growing it via the multiplier effect. This country has at times lost its perspective.

But with tougher times ahead for the eastern states, it seems some people and the government has certainly regained some perspective. I once said on this forum, the public will be reined in when the tough times come around. Certainly looks like it has and some people - especially those so adamant against foreign investments - certainly deserve it.
 
There's a situation I know personally. A couple from overseas came here on the point system of qualification. One will qualify but a couple of courses need to be done first but no guarantee for a job. Currently working in in a retail shop as a general hand and lost motivation to go for the qualification.

One is unable to work because an operation needs to be done then another 6 months of not being able to work after the operation. Recently their children arrived from overseas and now they're getting child support because of the single income.

How do you (or others) views this situation? Is it helping the economy in some way? This is just an example and have been hearing of a lot more similar situation.

My view is, their visa should not be renewed if that's the case.

Also I'm assuming these people aren't permanent residents or citizens? Why are they drawing on child support? :confused::confused::confused::confused:
 
If they haven't done the course how did the qualify?

Well, they got in through a point system of their backgrounds like education or experience however they're not able to practice until they enrol for a couple or more courses. So they got in but not necessarily qualify or couldn't find work in the role they got in for.

Didn't really make sense to me that they got in. It's probably why job recruiters can be useful to the right person for the role, provided they do their job properly of course.
 
My view is, their visa should not be renewed if that's the case.

Also I'm assuming these people aren't permanent residents or citizens? Why are they drawing on child support? :confused::confused::confused::confused:

The have permanent residency as soon as they entered the country. Don't ask me how. I'm as confused as you are. Obviously, the system or policy doesn't work.
 
Well, they got in through a point system of their backgrounds like education or experience however they're not able to practice until they enrol for a couple or more courses. So they got in but not necessarily qualify or couldn't find work in the role they got in for.

Didn't really make sense to me that they got in. It's probably why job recruiters can be useful to the right person for the role, provided they do their job properly of course.

I see. It's about the 'skills shortages' which are actually not in short supply at all in Melbourne anyway. Means that for every accounting job advertised on Seek they get 300 applications...it's no wonder they can't find a job.
 
The have permanent residency as soon as they entered the country. Don't ask me how. I'm as confused as you are. Obviously, the system or policy doesn't work.

sounds like a FIRB deal to me, whereby they pay their $400,000 bribe (sorry...i mean "investment") and they get permanent residency.
 
Haha they pay $400k and then come and claim child support.

huge scam, huh :rolleyes:

the $400k must be invested in a local business employing people, or they must be a part owner of a business turning over $400k.

something like that, anyway. i'm not full bottle on it, so happy to be corrected.
 
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