All P.I.G.S. fed and ready to fly

well another day goes by ,, dow off 3.6 % aussie $ down 4.5%

gold at 1455 aussie an oz
im with you mate im hoping the property market will crash soon. the current price is way too high for my liking, saw a property in helensvale was listed for 400k but dropped significantly to 340k :)
 
Generally regarding the short selling ban, either it should be allowed permanently or not allowed. The current situation of banning something as a knee jerk reaction just erodes confidence. It sends a message to the world that the government thinks their financial markets are on the brink.

Selling something that isn't yours is illegal in any other part of the law.

What law states that? In the real world this happens all the time, eg when a business takes an oder from someone then buys the inventory later. The short seller eventually has to buy the item they have sold.

If you are trying to suggest it is similar to theft that is absurd.
 
If you are trying to suggest it is similar to theft that is absurd.
I am, and I don't believe it is. You should be able to deliver the shares you sell, your own or borrowed.

Reading further though, on the DAX naked short selling is normally approved but payment isn't made till the asset is delivered. That's not as bad as the NYSE where there is criminal activity at worst, severely bending the rules at best.
 
Generally regarding the short selling ban, either it should be allowed permanently or not allowed. The current situation of banning something as a knee jerk reaction just erodes confidence. It sends a message to the world that the government thinks their financial markets are on the brink.



What law states that? In the real world this happens all the time, eg when a business takes an oder from someone then buys the inventory later. The short seller eventually has to buy the item they have sold.

If you are trying to suggest it is similar to theft that is absurd.

id like to see them make delivery of gold then . oh that's right they trading more ounces than in existence //cost the lme a 20% premium to settle privately for cash last time
 
well another day goes by ,, dow off 3.6 % aussie $ down 4.5%

gold at 1455 aussie an oz

what can i say, but the U2 song, ITS A BEAUTIFUL DAY

For the traders they should already have their risk strategies in execution mode, plenty of warning on this so shouldnt be any damage caused.

For the investors, yeah baby great buying opportunities today.
 
For the investors, yeah baby great buying opportunities today.

Yes IV, the intrinsic value investors have been providing support in the last 24/7. But we're not out of the frying pan yet sunny Jim.... :) This will be up and down for months methinks. The Bondies are calling EU's 1T bluff. And let's keep in mind China's got to do some serious culling of credit still. Nevertheless, if the market bounces a bit, you should send Kevin and Ken a thankyou card....and ask them to keep rolling out their socialist agenda....cos it's making you a wealthy man. :eek:

FX - eur stopped plummeting Wed arvo, which led support for aud et al.

Equities- china's had a pause from tumbling down, as has Bombay and ASX.

Fear - still rising.

Credit - tedspread and libor still moving up.

Cash - no change in money flow into bonds yet.

Rares - still a bit of juice to be squeezed from these babies.
 
Yes IV, the intrinsic value investors have been providing support in the last 24/7. But we're not out of the frying pan yet sunny Jim.... :) This will be up and down for months methinks. The Bondies are calling EU's 1T bluff. And let's keep in mind China's got to do some serious culling of credit still. Nevertheless, if the market bounces a bit, you should send Kevin and Ken a thankyou card....and ask them to keep rolling out their socialist agenda....cos it's making you a wealthy man. :eek:

FX - eur stopped plummeting Wed arvo, which led support for aud et al.

Equities- china's had a pause from tumbling down, as has Bombay and ASX.

Fear - still rising.

Credit - tedspread and libor still moving up.

Cash - no change in money flow into bonds yet.

Rares - still a bit of juice to be squeezed from these babies.

Good highlight of the risks.
You are right, we COULD go lower from here. No guarantees this is the bottom. But then i never could pick bottoms.

Instead i look at: upside opportunity vs downside risk. If the upside is greater i start to move.

Today was the first day i went back into buying big4 banks. (westpac and nab) The recent turbulance has washed out the weaker hands from overseas speculators in our banks. And local institutional investors started comming in from the side lines to buy. So i had to start my buying again on a dollar cost average downwards philosophy, especially as i was underweight banks. I didnt participate this sector earlier because i was worried about the influence of the carry trade as i highlighted in some other post.

Good opportunities in the small cap market as well, whenever fear rises, the small cap market buying support dries up, so you can place 'low ball' offers with the hope of picking up from some desperate seller (maybe margin call).

But you are definately right about the rise in underlying risk. Its interesting to note the performance of the markets subsequent to the TARP package back in 2008 to the current euro package. Markets staged a short rally and then subsequently dropped significantly over the next 8 weeks.

Its at difficult times like these that i have to go back to step 1. What is my purpose, to invest or trade. I invest, so my primary focus must always be on intrinsic value and the market is giving me that opportunity again. By the time markets 'stabalise', the market price will of course reflect this and thus will be higher priced.
 
Its at difficult times like these that i have to go back to step 1. What is my purpose, to invest or trade. I invest, so my primary focus must always be on intrinsic value and the market is giving me that opportunity again. By the time markets 'stabalise', the market price will of course reflect this and thus will be higher priced.


Spot on. By the time the average punter has gained enough confidence to re-enter the market, he'll have missed a lot of the gains. The higher his confidence level, the closer he is to getting his fingers burnt.


RC
 
Its at difficult times like these that i have to go back to step 1. What is my purpose, to invest or trade. I invest, so my primary focus must always be on intrinsic value and the market is giving me that opportunity again. By the time markets 'stabalise', the market price will of course reflect this and thus will be higher priced.

So IV, the thing I don't get about DCA, is how do you choose what portion of your capital you commit to each purchase? If you felt "more" uncertain, would you spend 12% at each leg down, as opposed to 20%?

Personally, I think when there's so much fear around like this, it is arguably a better strategy to DCA in only after the fundies firm up, and there's support from the technicals.

Personally, I reckon it is a bit too early to be jumping in. If you appreciate Robert Shiller's views on animal spirits like me, it is easy to reason there's still a modicum of fear in the belly to be expressed....
 
So IV, the thing I don't get about DCA, is how do you choose what portion of your capital you commit to each purchase? If you felt "more" uncertain, would you spend 12% at each leg down, as opposed to 20%?

I dont have a hard and fast rule. Basically it boils down to
(a) upside vs downside potential/risk
the greater the varience the happier i am to continue to dollar average.

(b) size of the underlying company
as a general rule of thumb, large caps have less volatility than small caps. So my dollar averaging positions will be smaller for large caps than for small caps.

(c) volatility of the share
the greater the volatility of a share, the wider the dollar average bands.

(d) quality of the company.
the lower the quality of the underlying company, the wider the dollar average bands. (note here: this applies not just to the quality of the company, but also for my degree of certainty that i am right, the less certain, the higher the bands need to be)
(in no specific order)

As a general rule of thumb, once i have made up my mind to acquire a company i prefer to acquire an intial stake equal to roughly 2% of my portfolio. So i will dollar average both upwards and downwards within a relatively tight range (say 5%) to acquire that 2%. The exception to this is
(a) zero LVR stock. A zero LVR stock must have at least 30% with preferably 50% upside potential, because it chews my capital.
(b) a high ylding stock thats needed to balance income from the portfolio. I will settle on a high ylding stock at less than 2% of the portfolio if its a 'safe' high yielder.

Then the most IMPORTANT RULE
i have a margin loan, so i cant just stick my head in the sand. I cant be a 'natural' investor. One of the fundamental trading rules has to apply to myself:
the market can remain illogical longer than i can remain solvant

Therefore i have to keep an eye on my margin positions. This is a key determinant as to whether i dollar average.


Personally, I think when there's so much fear around like this, it is arguably a better strategy to DCA in only after the fundies firm up, and there's support from the technicals.

the problem with technicals, is there are technicals and then there are technicals. I started dollar averaging in 2008 right through the downturn.
When the market swung up, i made most of my money in March/April 2009.
Why? the fear factor was greatest just before this point in time, hence the discount to intrinsic value was the greatest BEFORE that initial swing.
Technicals wouldnt have helped me at that point in time (everything was pointing to dead cat bounces).

When you refer to the fundies, consider:
(a) fundies are definately better than in late 2008. This was truely a worrying time, really worrying, really really worrying.
(b) the forward indicators
(c) that companies have adapted to those worrying times of 2008, well some companies anyway (and these are the ones i am interested in).



Personally, I reckon it is a bit too early to be jumping in. If you appreciate Robert Shiller's views on animal spirits like me, it is easy to reason there's still a modicum of fear in the belly to be expressed....

whats this?
if you mean animal spirits in the overall market place, i can tell you even before the latest downturn, animal spirits werent running strong.
Retail investors have not committed to the market, the average 'joe bloe' is not convinced anymore that you can make squillions from the share market.
In fact the only areas that i see animal spirits are in
(a) residential property in australia
(b) resources.
(c) gold

Dont confuse returns with animal spirits. There are so many factors at play here, a good part of the returns from the '2009 bottom' have been:
(a) retracement of market shorts
(b) hedge funds and the carry trade.
(c) stupidly low share prices that any blind harry could have seen if he was looking at the underlying companies.
 
When you refer to the fundies, consider:
(a) fundies are definately better than in late 2008. This was truely a worrying time, really worrying, really really worrying.

Currently they look better.......but remember sub prime first surfaced in 2006 as US rates went up. China was first to fall in Oct07, then HangSen, then ASX, then other EMs, then US. It was all credit driven. We are only just winding up with this credit crisis....and it is a hell of a lot bigger then Sub Prime. Any remedial action to save the PIIGS is going to put Europe into such deep debt that their consumption will be hit for decades. Further, if any country defaults, it will trigger another credit freeze across the world.

I don't think anyone knows how this is going to play out yet....other than most DMs are going to hock themselves into deep debt.

The Austrian economists have called this one right. Excess credit is the culprit...and the only out is to reduce consumption....and reduced consumption means reduced market earnings, unless everyone wants to keep devaluing their fiat currencies, until the bond vigilantes stop lending.

The problem is due to a serious imbalance in the means of production and consumption. The DMs cannot continue to have their lifestyles vendor financed. That's the source of excessive credit...and it is destructive when it is spent on consumption that does not increase production to cover the value of that consumption.

whats this?
if you mean animal spirits in the overall market place, i can tell you even before the latest downturn, animal spirits werent running strong.

That's true.....but the fundamentals told the story....the Aussie yield curve had been inverted since mid06 when the US GFC came to light. Our yield curve just began to invert again on May7.

Let's just see how it plays out. You are acquiring for the long term, and I am exploring my theories on macro-economics.....and so far we're both ahead.


 

That's true.....but the fundamentals told the story....the Aussie yield curve had been inverted since mid06 when the US GFC came to light. Our yield curve just began to invert again on May7.

Let's just see how it plays out. You are acquiring for the long term, and I am exploring my theories on macro-economics.....and so far we're both ahead.



I totally agree with you in regards to excess credit consumption and austraian economics.
but i dont think its clear cut how things will play out.
Except for the PIGS were the case is clearer (but the PIGS % of global activity is negligable).

I am not sure whether global consumption WILL collapse. Could we just see below trend growth in consumption (pre GFC im talking about).
Consumption growth financed by credit has to cease.
Savings have to increase, debt has to reduce.
The west has to produce something more, the east import something more.
The end result is sub optimal global growth. Maybe sometimes growing, then contracting, then growing, who knows.
But i think its not going to be steady like the period after the dot com crash.

The end result is a possible secular bear market.
But even in a secular bear market its still possible to create decent returns, just not from the indexes as a whole. If we are moving into a secular bear market, then its imperiative to:
(a) look at sustainable high dividend yielders
(b) GARP (growth at reasonable prices) will be very relevant.
 
If one looks to the Japanese stock market, a dollar cost average inwards and outwards would have produced reasonable returns.
In otherwords dollar average into the dips, and dollar average outwards as the market rises.
 
(a) look at sustainable high dividend yielders
I'm all ears. I've been wanting to buy div plays for some time now but the returns from strong companies are less than property even. I bought Telstra after one of their regular plunges but sold out again because it doesn't look sustainable. The banks give a fair dividend but will suffer in a bear market.

I always feel foolish when I buy one paying 10c div and promptly lose 50c on price. It doesn't make sense. I've held Santos for some time now and picked up a few hundred divs but down a grand on price. WTF! It's a good safe energy play.

Dollar cost averaging into Au/Ag is about all I can see and I'm not too keen on that either.
 
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