I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you.
Attempted suicide by tenant
- Thread starter fyli3
- Start date
I'm with you. This thread sure shows how heartless some can be.
i am yelling at the computer screen here....
Yes, 'their' instead of 'they're' is a killer
Some interesting attitudes towards mental illness. ...and yes those who suicide are at times labelled selfish - unfairly labelled. How many did reach out and were slapped in the face by those who couldn't give them five minutes of their quality time to offer a listening ear, or a distraction, how many kicked them when they were down to make themselves feel better. Who is selfish?
if the rent is/has been paid on time
if they are abiding by their tenancy agreement
if they did not damage your property
then let them stay.
If you are uncomfortable then do not renew their lease and you wear the cost of finding new tenants.
if the rent is/has been paid on time
if they are abiding by their tenancy agreement
if they did not damage your property
then let them stay.
If you are uncomfortable then do not renew their lease and you wear the cost of finding new tenants.
I've been told by agents that 'old or sick person dying' in hospital/not at the property does not devalue properties
They also say that 'old or sick person dying' in the property itself even may not devalue a property. I think it could, but also perhaps not or not much.
It is well-known that people dying from violent unnatural causes eg murder, suicide inside a property will devalue the property, sometimes to the extent of reducing the house value to zero (ie land value only left).
The only scenario I can think of where this may not devalue the property is if your property is one of a kind eg you own the most beautiful heritage house in XXX suburb or the apartment with the best view of Darling Harbour.
I don't know how the price will be affected if a person dies from a violent unnatural cause outside the property. I don't know if it will still affect the price.
I also don't know how the price will be affected if a person dies from a violent unnatural but accidental cause whether inside or outside the property eg car crash, sudden heart attack, falls out of a window, trips over hits head
For me personally, yes, any of these scenarios would affect the price negatively.
Also, certain ethnic groups are more superstitious than others. You need to keep in mind the ethnic demographics of where your property is.
Google the Lin Family murders in Epping.
Also as another example my friend's partner's family live in a house that they bought cheap because the previous owner committed suicide in the property.
It was all they could afford when they came as poor immigrants to Australia.
And yes my friend says the house is haunted!
It's up to the OP what they want to do, whether they follow their heart or their head, but they need to be aware of the potential financial risks.
Um, also just wondering what would happen if the tenant does commit suicide and the property is devalued? Will insurance cover this?
Let's say the house is worth 350k and land is worth 150k. Total value 500k.
Let's say owner has a mortgage with the bank of 400k.
Tenant commits suicide, house devalues to 50k.
So now value of land+house is 200k.
Will the bank call in the loan?
Will the bank sue the owner for the difference?
Will the insurance company cover the difference?
Let's say the house is worth 350k and land is worth 150k. Total value 500k.
Let's say owner has a mortgage with the bank of 400k.
Tenant commits suicide, house devalues to 50k.
So now value of land+house is 200k.
Will the bank call in the loan?
Will the bank sue the owner for the difference?
Will the insurance company cover the difference?
No, it won't cover it.
unfortunately, sometimes as landlords we do have to be "heartless" and abide by whats written on paper and what is in our best interests.
It also depends on the scenario for example if you are self managing and have become somewhat acquainted with the tenants over a period of time, it may be an emotional decision to help them out mentally or be lenient with the dollar side of things until he/she becomes better.
though from purely a business standpoint, if I were informed of an attempted suicide, I would find out if the tenant was seeking help or find out whether there is a real risk of them becoming successfully suicidal, and act accordingly if that is the case (evicting or giving some sort of notice)
Not justifying it in any way but with all of my tenants I am no more personally/emotionally attached to them than a starving child in a 3rd world country (whom I do help financially through charities) or the 300 odd people being innocently killed in Syria everyday and there is no real need to become personally and financially affected by people you do not have this association with
It also depends on the scenario for example if you are self managing and have become somewhat acquainted with the tenants over a period of time, it may be an emotional decision to help them out mentally or be lenient with the dollar side of things until he/she becomes better.
though from purely a business standpoint, if I were informed of an attempted suicide, I would find out if the tenant was seeking help or find out whether there is a real risk of them becoming successfully suicidal, and act accordingly if that is the case (evicting or giving some sort of notice)
Not justifying it in any way but with all of my tenants I am no more personally/emotionally attached to them than a starving child in a 3rd world country (whom I do help financially through charities) or the 300 odd people being innocently killed in Syria everyday and there is no real need to become personally and financially affected by people you do not have this association with
Well it's a good thing that it is none of his business whether or not it was a cry for help or if there is a real risk of them becoming successful. Do you think her psychiatrist would be willing to tell his/her landlord?
Get real.
Evicting someone because of their mental health issues is illegal.
Get real.
Evicting someone because of their mental health issues is illegal.
If i found out about it in the first place then it affects me and I am involved.
Its not a case of attempted suicide = eviction. But if you knew your tenant would eventually kill himself one way or another and isn't doing whatever it takes to seek help, what would you do? Wait till it happens?
Ok I can see how people can say "oh but its none of your business and as a landlord you should just stick to receiving rents etc etc"....but again - I found out about it, I can't ignore it, and I can be a d**k and promptly issue the 60 days.
That or I can see if anything can be done or if the PM can help by talking to them? or a relative/referee?
Its not a case of attempted suicide = eviction. But if you knew your tenant would eventually kill himself one way or another and isn't doing whatever it takes to seek help, what would you do? Wait till it happens?
Ok I can see how people can say "oh but its none of your business and as a landlord you should just stick to receiving rents etc etc"....but again - I found out about it, I can't ignore it, and I can be a d**k and promptly issue the 60 days.
That or I can see if anything can be done or if the PM can help by talking to them? or a relative/referee?
This is something that hasn't received enough attention on this thread. Every single state and territory is covered by legislation (in WA, it's the Equal Opportunity Act 1984) that states a number of different grounds upon which it is illegal to discriminate against someone. A range of different contexts are also specified. For example, in WA it's illegal to discriminate against somebody on any of the stated grounds (sex, marital status, disability, etc etc) in any of the specified contexts (employment, education, accommodation, provision of goods and services).
This is a civil law and so the penalty is a civil one. You won't serve a jail term if found guilty of discrimination on the grounds of illness or disability in the provision of accommodation (or rather, the refusal to provide accommodation). However, the flip side of this is that the burden of proof is relatively lower. What this means is that to prove that they have been discriminated against, the applicant (the tenant you have refused to rent to, because of their illness/disability) only has to prove on the balance of probabilities that they were discriminated against. That is, if the arbitrator can say, 'Yes, it is more likely than not that this person has been discriminated against because of their suicide attempt', then the defendant is found guilty.
Here is an information sheet, again from WA's Equal Opportunity Commission:-
http://v1180.vividcluster2.crox.net.au/Libraries/pdfs/DL_-_print_-_Impairment.sflb.ashx
You will find that each state and territory will have similar departments or agencies with similar information, specific to your state.
Hope this clears up any confusion.
OK thanks for the responses.
There are obviously two sides which are becoming evident.
The $ argument. I think someone hit the nail on the head before. There is natural death from old age/illness or unnatural death such as murder or suicide for which many have a negative view on. How strong that view is would depend on their cultural background and religious beliefs.
I think it is generally accepted that on the balance this view is more likely to be negative than positive. i.e. If presented with two identical properties and the only difference being that someone has died one of them, i think most posters will accept that buyers will tend towards the other property.
With many Australian properties yielding c3-4% on average. A relatively small impact to capital values would mathematically equal 1 or even 2 years of what you would collect in rent throughout the tenancy.
The second is the heart argument which obviously points to the person having a tough time at the moment. This view is valid and posters who advocate this invariably do not mention the financial impact to the porperty owner. This is a silent admission that there is expected to be a negative impact to the owner financially (although the extent of this can be debated). Advocates of the heart argument typically focus on the "there are more important things than money argument".
I think its basically an age old argument. i.e. Whether landlords' role in society is merely maximising individual financial utility or by virtue of providing an essential resource (i.e. accomodation), the landlord should be abiding to a seperate set of social/moral rules. Clearly this depends on individual values and there is no right or wrong answer here.
There are obviously two sides which are becoming evident.
The $ argument. I think someone hit the nail on the head before. There is natural death from old age/illness or unnatural death such as murder or suicide for which many have a negative view on. How strong that view is would depend on their cultural background and religious beliefs.
I think it is generally accepted that on the balance this view is more likely to be negative than positive. i.e. If presented with two identical properties and the only difference being that someone has died one of them, i think most posters will accept that buyers will tend towards the other property.
With many Australian properties yielding c3-4% on average. A relatively small impact to capital values would mathematically equal 1 or even 2 years of what you would collect in rent throughout the tenancy.
The second is the heart argument which obviously points to the person having a tough time at the moment. This view is valid and posters who advocate this invariably do not mention the financial impact to the porperty owner. This is a silent admission that there is expected to be a negative impact to the owner financially (although the extent of this can be debated). Advocates of the heart argument typically focus on the "there are more important things than money argument".
I think its basically an age old argument. i.e. Whether landlords' role in society is merely maximising individual financial utility or by virtue of providing an essential resource (i.e. accomodation), the landlord should be abiding to a seperate set of social/moral rules. Clearly this depends on individual values and there is no right or wrong answer here.
Fyli3
I think you've overrated the negative impact of somebody dying. This is only likely to be an impact if there is a violent death- and even then just an impact for some cultures.
And you've understated the financial impact of evicting- to say nothing of whether its even legal to do so. Remember that even if it was legal to evict the tenant because of what he did, there are other tenants who have done nothing wrong, and who could make trouble for you if you acted in certain ways.
There is a group of people who have been paying their rent- I assume regularly and on time, otherwise you would have said something. In allowing them to stay you continue to receive that rent. If you evict you may have a period of vacancy- purely because of normal supply and demand issues, not to do with circumstances- and you will have relet fees.
So you are more likely to lose money by evicting.
I don't know the legalities of your lease renewals. Even if you did choose not to renew- there will be a notice period required which may put their tenancy past the end of the lease.
I have had a tenant die although of natural causes. Any rent owing came out of the estate- so there was no problem in that regard. There was no stigma attached to the property.
I think you've overrated the negative impact of somebody dying. This is only likely to be an impact if there is a violent death- and even then just an impact for some cultures.
And you've understated the financial impact of evicting- to say nothing of whether its even legal to do so. Remember that even if it was legal to evict the tenant because of what he did, there are other tenants who have done nothing wrong, and who could make trouble for you if you acted in certain ways.
There is a group of people who have been paying their rent- I assume regularly and on time, otherwise you would have said something. In allowing them to stay you continue to receive that rent. If you evict you may have a period of vacancy- purely because of normal supply and demand issues, not to do with circumstances- and you will have relet fees.
So you are more likely to lose money by evicting.
I don't know the legalities of your lease renewals. Even if you did choose not to renew- there will be a notice period required which may put their tenancy past the end of the lease.
I have had a tenant die although of natural causes. Any rent owing came out of the estate- so there was no problem in that regard. There was no stigma attached to the property.
W
What is clear is some people have warped values. I had a tenant attempt suicide, it never entered my mind to think of any financial impact. I just felt saddnes and concern. He was a very likeable kid who had nothing or no-one both his parents had been killed. In fact it had a positive financial impact as I got higher paying tennants, as he left to go and live on the streets. Sold a high maintanence house which the tenant did, (garden)after the tennant died in it after a long illness. Had no affect on the value of the property, sold for 50% gain after 5 years. Babies, life, death, it happens every day everywhere. If a leasing fee is going to break you, or stress you , you are in the wrong business or over extended. It isnt the tennants fault if you cant manage your finances and dont have adequate buffers in place.
What is clear is some people have warped values. I had a tenant attempt suicide, it never entered my mind to think of any financial impact. I just felt saddnes and concern. He was a very likeable kid who had nothing or no-one both his parents had been killed. In fact it had a positive financial impact as I got higher paying tennants, as he left to go and live on the streets. Sold a high maintanence house which the tenant did, (garden)after the tennant died in it after a long illness. Had no affect on the value of the property, sold for 50% gain after 5 years. Babies, life, death, it happens every day everywhere. If a leasing fee is going to break you, or stress you , you are in the wrong business or over extended. It isnt the tennants fault if you cant manage your finances and dont have adequate buffers in place.
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You don't want to get on the national 'stigma registry'.
Suicide is a selfish act. By choosing to die in your house they will cause numerous problems for the landlord. I would not renew their lease. No need to pity these sorts of people. It is probably best they get a change environment too.
Is there a 'national stigma registry'? I couldn't find info on this, apart from an American one. Is it searchable to the public, or were you kidding, therefore by asking this question I look like an idiot? Not that I mind, thick face black heart
My understanding is that agents have the responsibility of disclosing to buyers if a property had a violent crime attached to it, which came after the Lin family murder. This is in NSW at least.
However, I don't see suicide as being included as that.
I am in the position of having had a property that had a suicide in it. It was more of a land bank than a actual investment, and has since been sold to developers. But, even so, tenants did move in to it later, I'm not sure if it was disclosed, but it had zero impact on value. This may be different in a straight residential investment, but unlikely.
As a tenant myself I do a quick google to see if there are any issues, but suicides are not reported as it is a personal matter, not in the public interest in general, so it is left to the family to grieve in peace.
Yes, investment is a business. But that doesn't mean one can't make a profit whilst still acting ethically.
However, I don't see suicide as being included as that.
I am in the position of having had a property that had a suicide in it. It was more of a land bank than a actual investment, and has since been sold to developers. But, even so, tenants did move in to it later, I'm not sure if it was disclosed, but it had zero impact on value. This may be different in a straight residential investment, but unlikely.
As a tenant myself I do a quick google to see if there are any issues, but suicides are not reported as it is a personal matter, not in the public interest in general, so it is left to the family to grieve in peace.
Yes, investment is a business. But that doesn't mean one can't make a profit whilst still acting ethically.
I must admit I'm trying to work out who here is serious and who isn't as well??
Terryw is joking, but the others who are going on about suicide being criminal and/or violent act, and that the house may drop in value have got me stumped.
I know a house that sold after someone suicided and it did NOT drop in value.
People die in houses all the time and people continue to live in them.
The house across the road and one down has had not 1 but 2 separate deaths in it - a 3 and a 17yo.
The 3yo died a tragic but natural death, but the 17yo died in tragic circumstances (he was in my husbands year at school).
Husband knows the previous owners who bought it after the 17yo died, and they speak fondly of the house and street; discussed because we live so close to it.
The new owners have been there about 15 years and have made it a lovely family home.
I'd certainly live there and pay the going price if i could afford it - large 1800's homestead on 2000sqm, tennis court, 5 minute walk from city parklands.
No wonder suicidal people keep their feelings and plans to themselves.
Terryw is joking, but the others who are going on about suicide being criminal and/or violent act, and that the house may drop in value have got me stumped.
I know a house that sold after someone suicided and it did NOT drop in value.
People die in houses all the time and people continue to live in them.
The house across the road and one down has had not 1 but 2 separate deaths in it - a 3 and a 17yo.
The 3yo died a tragic but natural death, but the 17yo died in tragic circumstances (he was in my husbands year at school).
Husband knows the previous owners who bought it after the 17yo died, and they speak fondly of the house and street; discussed because we live so close to it.
The new owners have been there about 15 years and have made it a lovely family home.
I'd certainly live there and pay the going price if i could afford it - large 1800's homestead on 2000sqm, tennis court, 5 minute walk from city parklands
.No wonder suicidal people keep their feelings and plans to themselves.
I'm certainly getting up my 'post count' over this thread.
Financial implications of evicting a tenant who has done nothing wrong and not broken any tenancy laws/agreements:
- most likely will stop paying rent as soon as you issue notice to kick them out
- will contact Tenancy Advisory service and find out their rights and refuse to leave drawing out the process for months and months
- may take you to court for discrimination
- if they are really shitty at you will destroy some of your investment (or at the very least leave prawn heads in the curtain rods)
If you don't have Landlords insurance you could be up for a pretty penny.
Financial implications of evicting a tenant who has done nothing wrong and not broken any tenancy laws/agreements:
- most likely will stop paying rent as soon as you issue notice to kick them out
- will contact Tenancy Advisory service and find out their rights and refuse to leave drawing out the process for months and months
- may take you to court for discrimination
- if they are really shitty at you will destroy some of your investment (or at the very least leave prawn heads in the curtain rods)
If you don't have Landlords insurance you could be up for a pretty penny.
People still get charged AND do time now, but it's because they're endangering others lives in the process, even if the chance of it is remote and there are no people in the vicinity, or because the method of suicide has caused significant property damage to another persons property (eg. fire/attempting to start a fire, which is arson and a serious crime).
I would be very shocked if suicide was a crime in your lifetime, but i don't know WA law, past or present.
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