Australians are getting ripped off by greedy politicians

[MPmelb]

A recent OECD report said that Australia is the heaviest taxed country in the world. That's no surprise.

In the first 6 months of this financial year, Victoria's State surplus was $1 billion. That is double what was budgeted for.

State governments have been making a fortune from property stamp duties as prices have rapidly increased in the last 10 years. But at least stamp duty is a once off when you buy.

Now they are set to make a fortune in Land taxes - the difference is they are accrued every year. They are so unfair and repressive.

What I noticed when the GST was introduced is that everything went up 10%, except for items like motor cars, electronic equipment, and fruit & veges. How often do people buy cars and electronic equipment?? Not that often.

The States got the extra GST revenue, and kept most of the previous taxes. They got a windfall with property stamp duties, and now will get land tax. They are awash with our cash.

Costello is in a huff & puff about it, but there is nothing he can constitutionally do to get the States to drop taxes. He didn't legislate at the time of introduction because he wanted the States to be in favour of the new tax system.

I have to agree - sooner or later the GST will increase, and will probably be 20% within the next 10-15 years.

Australians are getting shafted by greedy politicians. It just makes me sick.

 

[Aceyducey]

MPMelb,

Welcome to the soap box


1) The OECD report was biased and has been publicly outed as such.

2) Land Tax was around many years ago before the latest boom....but everyone is complaining now. I see a parallel to those people who chose to buy houses next to Lucas Heights - and then complained about the reactor. If you want to see your property increase in value, a large part of that increase will be the land's value.

3) I do not recollect prices all rising by 10% when the GST was introduced. In fact our cost of living went down when the GST was first introduced. Most state taxes were ended - only a few still remain where the states promised to remove them. They are being discussed at the moment.

4) There is no evidence for GST doubling over the next 10-15 years, only the idle speculation of a couple of people in a forum.

5) 'Greed' implies personal gain. Politicians do not personally gain by increasing the GST - in fact the people who suggest it are likely to lose office. And if we're being shafted by anyone, it's our own faults. We have the right to vote for whichever party we choose - or to start our own political parties. We have the right to actively campaign for political parties. However most people are satisfied with voting every election & then complaining that the outcome wasn't what they wanted.....but they won't get off their backsides to campaign about what they believe in.

Put out or shut up.

I've made significantly more money and proportionally increased my personal wealth since the introduction of the GST than prior. How many other forumites can also say this? What are you complaining about again?

Off my own soapbox.

Cheers,

Aceyducey

 

[buzzlightyear]

In the first 6 months of this financial year, Victoria's State surplus was $1 billion. That is double what was budgeted for.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with surpluses. Surely it is how and where it's spent that counts.

 

[Sunfish]

Acey, I hated the GST then and still do. I can see no causual link between my relative success this decade and the GST.

If however you are saying that the GST caused the housing bubble which has increased so many people's net worth, then I would argue that this (causing the housing bubble) was not a good thing.

The rate of GST can be increased at any time with the agreement of the state premiers. It is strictly my interpretation of what I see (not others' opinions regurgitated) but I see Howard with the premiers' bums all in line and it only needs one well timed kick and he will have the higher rate he always wanted ie he knew 10% was unsustainable.

You're welcome to prove me wrong but my recollection is that every country has increased consumption tax rates at least twice since introducing them and that most would be in the 15 - 20% range.

Seems you were unable to find an example of my use of Faulty Logic #4. Better luck this time

Thommo

 

[MPmelb]

Reply to Aceyducey:

1. Australian Tax levels. If you do a search on Google for "oecd Australian taxes" you will get many articles. Whichever article you read will say that Australia is a very heavily taxed country.

2. Land tax has been around for many years - true. But does that mean you don't change things when they become repressive? That is what a democratic society is about.

3. GST & cost of living - None of my bills went down. They stayed the same - except for the extra 10% gst tax which was added on.

4. GST increasing over the years - Is there more chance it will increase or decrease? Only speculation, but there is a good chance in the next few decades it will probably increase.

5. Greed or not - call it a Tax Grab then. You may be happy to pay heaps of tax which leads to the huge surpluses, but most people aren't. How many people want to campaign for politicians or be a politician? Very few. They are not trusted.

Surpluses are good, I agree. But where is this surplus being spent? And why can't we get some relief from all these excessive taxes. It's only fair.

 

[buzzlightyear]

MPMelb,

My understanding is that any increase in GST has to be agreed by all State Premiers as well. I cannot see any government, wanting to stay in power, that would simply increase GST and not compensate through lower personal tax rates/increase benefits.

 

[Sunfish]

MPMelb,

My understanding is that any increase in GST has to be agreed by all State Premiers as well. I cannot see any government, wanting to stay in power, that would simply increase GST and not compensate through lower personal tax rates/increase benefits.

Dead easy. Just blame everyone else. Or "promise" to reduce taxes after you get re-elected. Worked before! LOL

T

 

[Hulkster]

Personally I think a GST/VAT is a good thing. User pays is a rather appropriate system. Many goods fell in price after the introduction of the GST - many foods, cars etc. Don't forget it replaced things like sales tax (22%??) and the like.

 

[Sunfish]

Personally I think a GST/VAT is a good thing. User pays is a rather appropriate system. Many goods fell in price after the introduction of the GST - many foods, cars etc. Don't forget it replaced things like sales tax (22%??) and the like.

And was an immediate 10% wealth grab on every retiree or person saving for retirement.

T

 

[lizzie]

i think we need to take a look at the whole picture ... yes, australia is highly taxed but we also get our basic health and education for free (to a very high point) and social security is paid to those who need it (and some who don't) for as long as it is required.

not like the united states where social security is cut off at 6 months, regardless of whether the situation has changed or not. health is not affordable by many because it is largely a user pays system - if you can't prove you can pay (before the doctor will touch you) then you don't get the service. i can't comment on their education, but i do know that they have had a hecs system (student loans) for a lot longer than we have.

i know some americans who are stunned at what a good health and education system we have in this country - so not everyone is happy but it is pretty darned good as far as world standards go.

i don't necessary agree with how the government spends, that is why i have the chance to vote.

personally i am better off under the new land tax system - owning 12 properties - as the percentage rate has lowered more than enough to cover dropping the threshold. perhaps those who don't like the land tax should buy more!

lizzie

 

[Sultan of Swing]

Acey, I hated the GST then and still do. I can see no causual link between my relative success this decade and the GST.

The way I read Acey's comment is, he didn't increase his net worth because of the GST, but rather, in spite of the GST. In other words, when someone moves the goal posts, we adapt and play by any new rules that are thrown at us.

Cheers

 

[lizzie]

In other words, when someone moves the goal posts, we adapt and play by any new rules that are thrown at us.

the sign of a top quality investor - we need to "use" the system to our advantage. keeps the old grey matter plugging, thinking of new ways to invest profitably despite obstacles

p.s. my previous message doesn't mean that i like paying tax - definately not - but it is a necessary evil

 

[pete_w]

i disagree with the arguments about a surplus. when the government annouces a surplus imo its not doing its job. i pay tax so that money is spent on areas such as health, education and transport. i dont want it to be hoarded away so they can point at it and win elections. its ok for goverments to be in debt. not a lot of debt, but some is ok and to be expected. if they're not in debt, they are not spending enough, and theres more than enough areas out there that need more funding.

 

[quoll]

the sign of a top quality investor - we need to "use" the system to our advantage. keeps the old grey matter plugging, thinking of new ways to invest profitably despite obstacles

p.s. my previous message doesn't mean that i like paying tax - definately not - but it is a necessary evil

Lizzie, I would guess most don't like paying tax, but most enjoy getting cheap medical assistance, cheap schooling, reasonable roads and the some of the other benefits.

I for one do not like the way most Gov departments work, they are inefficent, lazy, bureaucratic, hard to deal with.

My understanding of the GST was that it would be easy to admin thereby the ATO would not have to increase the number of workers. Since the intro of the GST the ATO staff has increased.

We have the same issues with State and Local government but for the most part I enjoy living in this country, and I'm willing to pay tax as long as I'm paying the minimum amount that I can legally.

cheers
quoll

 

[Peter Parker]

A recent OECD report said that Australia is the heaviest taxed country in the world. That's no surprise.

I would rather a government that runs a small surplus (and the budget surplus is quite small as a percent of GDP) than one that runs at a deficit, especially when economic times are fairly good.

To do fair international comparisons, one must also look at:

1. Government Expenditure (% of GDP)
2. Public Surplus/Deficit (% of GDP)

as well as tax as a percent of GDP.

Other countries may have lower tax takes but this is very easy if they are running budget deficits all the time.

Our politicians could easily be worse than they are; 'giving' us things we can't afford (from our own money) and running huge deficits.

Now they are set to make a fortune in Land taxes - the difference is they are accrued every year. They are so unfair and repressive.

Those areas where land taxes are highest have enjoyed high unearned capital growth in the last 10 years, so I can't claim to be particularly sympathetic to their pleadings for relief from the public purse.

Our tax system combines some extremely high effective tax rates (unevenly applied) with lavish incentives for certain favoured classes of people, businesses and investors.

Thus one part, in isolation, may appear punative. But to be fair, this must be offset against generous regimes for investors in areas like CGT, negative gearing, dividend imputation, depreciation.

Swings and roundabouts. One hand taketh, the other giveth.

Think of the big picture.

Do the best with what you have, take advantage of available benefits and in the long term you should not pay too much tax (certainly a lower rate than most PAYE earners) and will do OK overall.

Rgds,

Peter (wannabe Treasurer?)

 

[qaz]

Government Expenditure on Goods & Services (per cent of GDP):

I think this graph says it all......

Basically if we are spending less as a percentage of GDP than countries such as France, Sweden and the UK, then how are we taxing more?.

 

[Panic]

Surplus

i disagree with the arguments about a surplus. when the government annouces a surplus imo its not doing its job. i pay tax so that money is spent on areas such as health, education and transport. i dont want it to be hoarded away so they can point at it and win elections. its ok for goverments to be in debt. not a lot of debt, but some is ok and to be expected. if they're not in debt, they are not spending enough, and theres more than enough areas out there that need more funding.

Pete, you couldn't be more correct. Surplus is = bad government. That is a fact. The government is taxing to spend that money on new roads, hospitals, social security and drive the economy, not to keep the taxpayers money in the bank!

Thx
V

 

[Aceyducey]

Pete, you couldn't be more correct. Surplus is = bad government. That is a fact. The government is taxing to spend that money on new roads, hospitals, social security and drive the economy, not to keep the taxpayers money in the bank!

Given that governments generally owe money from borrowings when they were in deficit (particularly state governments who no longer have licenses to print money) and need funds when unexpected events come up, like collapses of insurance companies, natural disasters and so forth, I reckon it's only prudent for governments to keep some money in the bank for rainy days.

After all, don't you personally try to keep some funds on hand in case some of your budgetting proved to be wrong?

Cheers,

Aceyducey

 

[shazza]

The government is taxing to spend that money on new roads, hospitals, social security and drive the economy, not to keep the taxpayers money in the bank!

I think part of the problem with our perception of taxes is that we feel that its not being spent on the above but often acts a slush fund for the pollies to snuffle their snouts in.
After watching programs on the lack of support for carers and our recent tragedy of a mentally ill man being shot by police it appears that a lot of our health system is being outsouced to the community.
In the case of a carer I'm sure an extra $10k a year would make their life easier yet a polly can run that up on just a hotel room for some wasteful overseas trip or a little extra in their superfund.
THAT ticks me off about it all.

not so cheers
Sharyn

 

[Sultan of Swing]

After all, don't you personally try to keep some funds on hand in case some of your budgetting proved to be wrong?

Once again I've got to agree with Acey although twice in one day is a bit of a worry.

Considering this is an investment forum and there's a lot of talk of the importance of keeping a buffer, I'm surprised at some of the comments. I'm happy for any government to have a surplus and 'bank' it for a rainy day.

Cheers