I think oversupply of pharm grads and the commercialisation via Chemist Warehouse etc might be the issue
Australia's 10 best paid jobs
- Thread starter TingTong
- Start date
I think oversupply of pharm grads and the commercialisation via Chemist Warehouse etc might be the issue
I noticed a fair amount of discussion about Nurses so I thought I'd add in my experience having one as a partner for the last 2 years...
This is a fancy private hospital in inner Melbourne.
The shift work sucks
- The majority of nurses do not like it and there is regular bullying into the 'crappy shifts' (i.e. over Easter, Australia day long weeks, etc).
- The fortnightly roster (10 on / 4 off - i.e. potential to work up to 20 days straight)
Every nurse must work either NY or Xmas, one or the other, every year.
- AM shifts are 7am - 3pm, PM shifts are 2pm - 10pm, and many days she has a PM followed by an AM. As is takes an hour to get to the hospital by the time she drives home, has a shower to wash off the blood/urine/feces of the day and jumps directly into bed at say 11:30pm (no time to wind down or chat with me she will get an absolute maximum of 6 hours sleep (usually 5.5 or so).
- Older, single/never married, childless women seem to be over represented in her workplace... poor things (is this from working too many Saturday nights to find someone!?). Also, when most nurses find a partner it's usually their job that is given up to raise the kids.
Excessive Liability (shifted from Doctors to Nurses)
I was told of a case where a Dr prescribed 100mg of a drug to a patient. The nurse administering the drug thought it was too high for such a strong drug, where doses are usually 10-20mg, and called the Dr to double check. The Dr blasted her on the phone 'how dare you question my figures'. The nurse administered 100mg (which turned out to be 10x the dose) and the patient has unfortunately died. The Nurse is awaiting to face the Coroners Court.
Penalty Pay - not worth it.
I can get some exact figures but certainly in the private system it's woeful. Public might be better. For a profession that requires registration + 3 years of tertiary study, it's pretty low rates of pay. Just like Vets, Pharmacists, etc. I think they take advantage of some peoples natural desire to help others, like teachers and other carers.
The work itself is insanely hectic
- Many days no breaks, sometimes no lunch breaks (e.g. coffee for lunch). Back injury risk, lifting overweight people into beds, etc. She rocks up 15 minutes early to her shifts regularly otherwise she'll be behind all day. Far out!!! Makes me feel guilty. She just can't believe that I can surf the net and use Somersoft at work.
Just last night we were talking about the scariest thought... a huge % of the nursing workforce are over 40 years old... i.e. it's a very 'old' workforce, there isn't enough young blood coming in to refill the ranks. What does that tell you about the conditions?
Due to these conditions she has just finished working full time at the hospital and now works in a small surgeons private practice 3 days a week mainly treating plastic / cosmetic surgery patients for more pay...
(she still works 2 days at a week at the regular hospital).
Sadly she has considered changing careers into Real Estate! She WANTS to be a Paramedic, but the conditions are EVEN WORSE!
Naturally I am biased having a nurse as a GF, and I'm sure the usual supply/demand laws will balance this one out eventually but currently it does seem quite bad and will probably get worse before it gets better.
This is a fancy private hospital in inner Melbourne.
The shift work sucks
- The majority of nurses do not like it and there is regular bullying into the 'crappy shifts' (i.e. over Easter, Australia day long weeks, etc).
- The fortnightly roster (10 on / 4 off - i.e. potential to work up to 20 days straight)
Every nurse must work either NY or Xmas, one or the other, every year.
- AM shifts are 7am - 3pm, PM shifts are 2pm - 10pm, and many days she has a PM followed by an AM. As is takes an hour to get to the hospital by the time she drives home, has a shower to wash off the blood/urine/feces of the day and jumps directly into bed at say 11:30pm (no time to wind down or chat with me she will get an absolute maximum of 6 hours sleep (usually 5.5 or so).
- Older, single/never married, childless women seem to be over represented in her workplace... poor things (is this from working too many Saturday nights to find someone!?). Also, when most nurses find a partner it's usually their job that is given up to raise the kids.
Excessive Liability (shifted from Doctors to Nurses)
I was told of a case where a Dr prescribed 100mg of a drug to a patient. The nurse administering the drug thought it was too high for such a strong drug, where doses are usually 10-20mg, and called the Dr to double check. The Dr blasted her on the phone 'how dare you question my figures'. The nurse administered 100mg (which turned out to be 10x the dose) and the patient has unfortunately died. The Nurse is awaiting to face the Coroners Court.
Penalty Pay - not worth it.
I can get some exact figures but certainly in the private system it's woeful. Public might be better. For a profession that requires registration + 3 years of tertiary study, it's pretty low rates of pay. Just like Vets, Pharmacists, etc. I think they take advantage of some peoples natural desire to help others, like teachers and other carers.
The work itself is insanely hectic
- Many days no breaks, sometimes no lunch breaks (e.g. coffee for lunch). Back injury risk, lifting overweight people into beds, etc. She rocks up 15 minutes early to her shifts regularly otherwise she'll be behind all day. Far out!!! Makes me feel guilty. She just can't believe that I can surf the net and use Somersoft at work.
Just last night we were talking about the scariest thought... a huge % of the nursing workforce are over 40 years old... i.e. it's a very 'old' workforce, there isn't enough young blood coming in to refill the ranks. What does that tell you about the conditions?
Due to these conditions she has just finished working full time at the hospital and now works in a small surgeons private practice 3 days a week mainly treating plastic / cosmetic surgery patients for more pay...
(she still works 2 days at a week at the regular hospital).Sadly she has considered changing careers into Real Estate! She WANTS to be a Paramedic, but the conditions are EVEN WORSE!
Naturally I am biased having a nurse as a GF, and I'm sure the usual supply/demand laws will balance this one out eventually but currently it does seem quite bad and will probably get worse before it gets better.
Yep.
I think the world could possibly handle a bit of a shortage of mining engineers for a few years (and they are worth every cent for what they have to do) but you couldn't say that about doctors or nurses - there is already a constant whinge about lack of beds across the Country, and waiting lists etc; lack of doctors/nurses is the cause, ultimately...
At least doctors can earn some serious coin.
Anyone who chimes in with "oh, but doctors do more training" etc; haven't seen what the nurses have to do, and then have to do in the doctor's absence - they often do their job for them, and then have to take the blame for the carnage if it happens.
But, it's a futile argument when talking to anyone who works 9-5, Mon to Fri, never gets dirty other than if the mouse gets coffee split on it.....so we best give it up and move on.
What about those Pies last w'end!
Any shortfall in nurses is taken up by nurses coming in from OS. Had a look at the nationalities getting around lately.
I come across heaps and they think the 100Kpa that shift work earns them is money for jam.
It really depends on who you talk too.
Perhaps there are people that get into the job without realising it's 'hands on' and are shocked that they have to do some work.
My bet is they probably haven't done too many other jobs and or aren't particularly keen on a bit of hard work (it's not that back breaking btw).
Anyway just because someone chooses not to work a job because they think it's distastful, doesn't mean those that do enjoy it should be paid more.
I've always thought jobs like accounting or banking would do my head in -don't understand why anyone would do those jobs- but some clearly like them.
If you don't like a job then you move on.
I come across heaps and they think the 100Kpa that shift work earns them is money for jam.
It really depends on who you talk too.
Perhaps there are people that get into the job without realising it's 'hands on' and are shocked that they have to do some work.
My bet is they probably haven't done too many other jobs and or aren't particularly keen on a bit of hard work (it's not that back breaking btw).
Anyway just because someone chooses not to work a job because they think it's distastful, doesn't mean those that do enjoy it should be paid more
.I've always thought jobs like accounting or banking would do my head in -don't understand why anyone would do those jobs- but some clearly like them.
If you don't like a job then you move on.
'
People make their own choices as to which profession they choose, Marc. If an individual doesn't like what they are getting paid, they can go into a profession that pays a higher wage.
We all know that, and I have already said the nurses are never the ones who cry about their lot.
It's folk like me who are associated with them and see what they have to deal with who are their noisy advocates.
See above.
I'd bet your miserable old corolla it's what they turnover - not what they nett.
By the time you factor in malpractice insurance, rent, wages for staff and so on the nett would be way less - but still worth the effort, otherwise they probably would pull up stumps and move into IT....far easier.
But yeah; good luck to them for whatever their nett is; well deserved, I say.
The base rate is mid to high 70K - that's for a 38 hour week Mon to Fri.
Shift work AND overtime (full OT shifts) gets you well over 100K.
Nurses have a choice of working M-F (heaps of these jobs around in clinics), to work part time working shifts that suit, or partime working the best paid shifts ie. 3 shifts with shift allowance instead of 5 days of M-F for similar pay, or working full time shiftwork.
Mothers with children love bringing in a decent income for doing less than full time hours and having weekdays with their young children.
No one is made to work overtime unless someone is running late, the agency nurse was a last minute booking and can't start till after the official start time, etc. and then you're only doing an hour or two.
When you are doing a whole shift it's because all avenues for sourcing staff have been exhausted AND you've agreed to do it - this sort of thing happens in most workplace but you can manipulate numbers in a large hospital to an extent and take someone from elsewhere, or cancel some procedures on that shift if you have to.
As for druggies, drunks and their friends... if you want to avoid them work in a children hospital or immunization clinic or palliative care unit.
Nursing being so varied means it's not hard finding something you enjoy in the hours that suit.
Believe it or not some nurses love the experience of the ER's and mental health ICU's too.
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Weg, you are missing the point.
It's not what they are currently paid that is the issue; it's what they are paid compared to other jobs.
But, since you bought the hours and pay rates up;
My wife has a degree in Nursing and a Post Grad Cert in Theatre nursing. She has been doing it 20 years.
Her normal wage for her quals is $34 per hour. That's not too bad but hardly stellar for the training required, experience and job role. etc.
Based on your 9-5 hours or 38 hour week, she is up for $1292 per week, or $67,184 per year.
According to what the average wage is these days, she is a tad above it I believe.
Some of the ICU nurses I used to work with could "milk" the shifts and get it up to around $80-$90k per year, but the hours were shoit to get it....and these are the best nurses we have.
I could earn almost the same as that as a Por shop manager, and it is a very, very easy job to do by comparison and responsibility, training required and/or experience....all I need is a pulse and be able to read and talk.
Now, let's compare apples with apples you guys and stop talking [email protected]e, there is no nursing job (unless it's as a receptionist type role in a private practice) where a nurse can work anything close to a 9-5, Mon to Fri role.
There's heaps actually, eg. practice nurses in general practice or any other specialist clinic, who don't do "receptionist type roles". That's what receptionists are for, though some of these nurses do both roles. What an insult to a lot of nurses!!
My GP clinic has a nurse. My GP has shunted me off to her for injections, wound care and instruction on using a 24 hour blood pressure monitor. Not sure what other duties she does, but she certainly doesn't do reception duties.
It's a reasonably large clinic (15-20 GPs) but only operates businessish hours (8-6 and sat mornings I think).
Twist it how you like Jit.
You know exactly what I was referring to with that description - the hours, not the role itself.
And, no-one was insulting receptionists or nurses - least of all me; I'm the biggest supporter of them by far here on this joint.
If you want to pick on someone who has no care at all about nursing staff - pick on China; he has openly shown what he thinks about them.
I haven't heard you coming to their defense in this argument too much, buddy - and you're a doctor, correct?
Mine was a description of the hours that type of job encompasses in many areas....
"Ward Clerk" is another one that springs to mind....many of them do the 9-5 type of hours, but not all.
75K is the Level 1 pay rate in SA, significantly more when you get to other levels. Add on allowances in some cases too (mine are worth about 5K a year).
We lag behind other states, but obviously not Victoria. 8K less on the base rate does make a significant difference.
I have never heard of milking shifts to earn more money. What is this? Most just apply for a different role at a higher level. Again not that hard to do.
As for M-F there really are loads of these jobs out there.
In fact just in the last 18 months I've been to 5 clinics that only operate 9-5 M-F - Eye Clinic (me), Pacemaker Clinic (mum), day suite for son's endoscopy, day suite for mums colonoscopy, day suite for mums biopsy.
All heavily run by nurses who work normal hours.
The outpatient departments especially are full of these positions.
On comparisons to other health care jobs like podiatry, psychology, social work, occupational therapy, pharmacy, I think nursing rates fine.
What are you comparing it with?
Edit: OK just read it... pro shop workers.
Perhaps unhappy nurses can do that instead.
We lag behind other states, but obviously not Victoria. 8K less on the base rate does make a significant difference.
I have never heard of milking shifts to earn more money. What is this? Most just apply for a different role at a higher level. Again not that hard to do.
As for M-F there really are loads of these jobs out there.
In fact just in the last 18 months I've been to 5 clinics that only operate 9-5 M-F - Eye Clinic (me), Pacemaker Clinic (mum), day suite for son's endoscopy, day suite for mums colonoscopy, day suite for mums biopsy.
All heavily run by nurses who work normal hours.
The outpatient departments especially are full of these positions.
On comparisons to other health care jobs like podiatry, psychology, social work, occupational therapy, pharmacy, I think nursing rates fine.
What are you comparing it with?
Edit: OK just read it... pro shop workers.
Perhaps unhappy nurses can do that instead
.
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That's the nature of the capitalist marketplace. Salaries aren't fair and there is little point in making comparisons between professions.
Is it fair that a movie star makes more than a cancer-curing scientist? Hell no. But that's capitalism.
The younger generation complain that it isn't fair that property is more expensive than 20 years ago and SSers are the first to remind them that life isn't fair and that they should quit their complaining and make the most of the opportunities they do have.
Life isn't fair. Capitalism isn't fair. Nurses go into their profession knowing what the deal is. What a financial planner, computer programmer or accountant earns is irrelevant to what nurses get paid.
If someone earns 200k for sitting in an office from 9-5 there's no point in bleating on about how unfair it is and demanding a payrise for what you deem more important professions. That isn't how capitalism works.
Yes, Marc is quite fond of making this point. However, it's a totally different story when it affects someone you care about
.And maybe that's part of what we're complaining about?
If these lower cost OS nurses are as good as my companies lower cost OS IT support - god help us all if we have to go to hospital!
My GF earns nowhere near 100k.
As discussed, they are... unfortunately.
Not in Victoria in one of it's best Private hospitals. I'm talking the one Kylie Minogue went when she had breast cancer.
Who loves to do an early morning Sunday shift? i.e. 5:30am Sunday wake up. Or the whole Easter long weekend 4 days in a row? Or a PM-AM (5-6 hours sleep at best) once a week? Friday PMs, Sat AMs or Sat PMs shifts for anyone under 35?
The Private hospitals are run much tougher with more of a focus on the bottom line. Perhaps you are talking about Public. In Private, there is definately a guilt/pressure trip thing going on and a reluctance to take in outside agency nurses to fill a shift. They'll just run the shift short (i.e. 1:6 ratios, up from the normal 1:5 in Private and 1:4 in Public) and all the girls basically slammed the whole shift, or have one nurse (one of their friends) stay on and do a double shift (i.e. 2x 8 hour shifts in a row).
Obviously this will differ on a hospital by hospital basis.
My GF, mid 20's, makes around $60k for her 2x Bachelors Degrees (Psych and Nursing) working a 10 day on fortnightly roster of AM's and PM's, public holidays treated as normal days, shifts go 1-2 hours overtime around 30% of the time. 10k below the Australian 70k* average (* according to JJJ's hack the other night).
The guy in the 7/11 across the road commented that her hours are worse than his when she went in last night for a $1 coffee.
If she worked those same hours and overtime as a checkout chick at Coles the pay wouldn't be that much less.
Agreed. Sure there may be *some*, but that would be the minority.
Of course, I'm just talking about negatives above, however it does bug me to think the system seems designed to repel our better and brightest nurses in favour of lower-skilled who will put up with the conditions, lower ratios (and the watering down of care for us), etc.
If there was nothing in it you wouldn't have huge public support for nurses (like that list posted here).
