Bali Nine

[Ausprop]

this may help some come to terms with this..


Psychotherapist Zoe Krupka said the fate of the Bali Nine has captured national attention as the duo are ?identifiable victims? we can easily relate to.

?There?s actually a theory called identifiable victim syndrome ? which is [the idea] one dead person is a tragedy and 700,000 is a statistic. We know about [Sukumaran and Chan] and their families, and we know about their stories. We identify with them and we think about them, they?re real to us and that makes it unbearable.?

Ms Krupka said the Bali case is also shocking in the apparent redemption of the pair hasn?t led to clemency.

?We have this idea if you make good, you transform, you should be forgiven and that?s not what?s happening ? That?s part of what?s so upsetting.?

 

[jackbak]

you would be happy to stand by and leave hundreds of thousands of desparates dying whilst you smash a pizza? this is not bargaining, it's just foot in mouth disease.

Are you even responding to my post? If you need to completely exaggerate everything to prove your point and try to make everyone look heartless who doesn't agree with the death penalty then you need a new argument.

I don't make the rules and I didn't say I agree with it, that's just how international relations work, nothing is for 'free' - "we'll give you this if you vote for this resolution", "will sign off on this if you sign off on that", etc etc. If you don't like it that's fine, but don't try and paint me as the bad guy for explaining how it works...

 

[jackbak]

exactly, they have decided to protect their families at the expense of all ours. The selfishness has been perpetuated

I agree with this 100%, I cant believe they haven't given up the big guys. I wouldn't call it selfishness though - they probably would have avoided the death penalty of they gave them up.

 

[sanj]

what I find amazing is this rock solid assertion that these guys have been rehabilitated. they sat around in prison making the most of their time before their ultimate date with destiny whilst refusing to give up the names of who they were working for.

what i find amazing is this rock solid assertion that these guys have not been rehabilitated.


what i find amazing is you saying the same thing repeatedly like youre adding something to the discussion.

what i find amazing is you talking about "It was a despicable and stupid thing to say and I have never been so embarrassed to be an aussie. completely heartless." and in the same breath making equally heartless ansd entirely callous comments yourself. Incidentally i actually agree with your comment here, it was extremely stupid to bring aid into it.

 

[sanj]

Yes i dont get how some people dont understand this

They all link refusing to name as signs of lack of rehabilitation

completely agree.

also the simpletons keep repeating the "they only rehabilitated because they got caught" line, even if that is in fact true, is that kind of the point of the penal system? a mix of punishment and rehabilitation?

 

[Ausprop]

well I agree we are going around in circles. To close off:

- they knew the risks
- they did it for greed
- you can't 'rehabilitate' this act. and any such attempt was just what anyone would do in those circumstances
- even if rehab was an option for them, they have refused to give up the names of their employers
- rehabilitation has actually never been an option for this crime so not sure why we keep discussing it anyway
- Indonesia can and does have the right to execute these guys, it's their laws and someone voluntarily broke those laws
- Australia is only fresh from having the death penalty itself so is in no real position to lecture
- throwing in aid as a bargaining chip was just stupid and embarrassing. Sadly I voted for the turkey.
- if death is not a deterrent for anyone considering smuggling then god help you, you are either fearless or an idiot
- drugs are not a victimless crime, the ripple effects of this hideous trade touch us all

If your emotions are getting the better of you please refer back to my post #501 as it pretty much sums up my frustration of dealing with these circular threads, so feel I can check out.

 

[HiEquity]

wouldn't you do the same?

No, I wouldn't. I would ask myself "what is in the best interests of Indonesia"?

Clearly, shooting foreign citizens is unlikely to make you many friends in the global community. In any case, Indonesia gains nothing from the death penalty, except among those who like to see people die, who I'm not sure they should be taking their guidance from. This is all about lowest common denominator domestic politics of the worst kind. Nothing good comes out of it for Indonesia - or anyone else.

Most importantly, Indonesia needs to be able to credibly say that it's not OK to kill people. In order to do so, they first need to stop doing exactly that themselves...

 

[kathryn d]

I haven't heard any outrage on the news about the USA trying to decide if they will seek the death penalty for the Boston Marathon killer.


Only outrage, if the criminal is Australian?

One of the ones on the list to be executed with the Bali 9, is someone claiming to be innocent.

Is Australia trying to stop all the executions, or just these 2 men.

 

[chilliblue]

No, I wouldn't. I would ask myself "what is in the best interests of Indonesia"?

Clearly, shooting foreign citizens is unlikely to make you many friends in the global community. In any case, Indonesia gains nothing from the death penalty, except among those who like to see people die, who I'm not sure they should be taking their guidance from. This is all about lowest common denominator domestic politics of the worst kind. Nothing good comes out of it for Indonesia - or anyone else.

Most importantly, Indonesia needs to be able to credibly say that it's not OK to kill people. In order to do so, they first need to stop doing exactly that themselves...

Indonesia could also rightly state that the amount of time and spent by our government could have better spent tackling issues in improving our own country rather than worrying about a sovereign countries right to undertake a policy that they clearly agree with.

Where is the same condemnation on other Western Countries that also have the death penalty.

 

[HiEquity]

Where is the same condemnation on other Western Countries that also have the death penalty.

I agree we should absolutely be more consistent - I don't remember John Howard's outrage about Saddam Hussein.

I do understand though that a country only has a reason to comment when its own citizens are at stake.

Speaking personally, I remain opposed to the death penalty under any circumstances on the grounds that killing people is only ever justified in self defence.

 

[jackbak]

I haven't heard any outrage on the news about the USA trying to decide if they will seek the death penalty for the Boston Marathon killer.


Only outrage, if the criminal is Australian?

One of the ones on the list to be executed with the Bali 9, is someone claiming to be innocent.

Is Australia trying to stop all the executions, or just these 2 men.

What on earth does this have to do with anything? There's 100's of drug dealers in prison in New Zealand, are you calling for their deaths with equal enthusiasm? Only outrage, if the criminal is Australian?

Obviously Australians will get more attention in Australia than foreigners.

 

[TMNT]

What on earth does this have to do with anything? There's 100's of drug dealers in prison in New Zealand, are you calling for their deaths with equal enthusiasm? Only outrage, if the criminal is Australian?

Obviously Australians will get more attention in Australia than foreigners.

exactly, we are only giving a stuff because the two are australian,

why would we get involved in the business of foreigners in a foreign country???

we might as well get involved in the living conditions of some sewer rat in a third world country that most of us have never heard of

 

[jackbak]

exactly, we are only giving a stuff because the two are australian,

why would we get involved in the business of foreigners in a foreign country???

Spot on, we only give it so much attention because they are Australian. It's like complaining that baseball isn't on TV in Melbourne as much as AFL - we only care about what we are interested in or what is close to us. That's human nature.

we might as well get involved in the living conditions of some sewer rat in a third world country that most of us have never heard of

Exactly, we mainly get involved in things that involve Australians, we can't get involved in everything that happens around the world.

I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing but I agree with everything you said

 

[nomadic]

I haven't heard any outrage on the news about the USA trying to decide if they will seek the death penalty for the Boston Marathon killer.

What has the Boston bomber got to do with Australia? Planting a bomb to kill people is a lot different to carrying drugs on a plane for some fast cash.

 

[TMNT]

Spot on, we only give it so much attention because they are Australian. It's like complaining that baseball isn't on TV in Melbourne as much as AFL - we only care about what we are interested in or what is close to us. That's human nature.



Exactly, we mainly get involved in things that involve Australians, we can't get involved in everything that happens around the world.

I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing but I agree with everything you said

im agreeing with you,

its selective media/caring,

we:ve heard heaps and heaps of stuff about the 2 bali guys, however, have heard nothing aobut the other 8 or so about to be executed,

thats why i am curious, are the other countries making a big deal like australia is but we just arent hearing it???

I also heard that for the nigerian guy, he was transported in a single van as opposed to 50 for the australians

 

[kathryn d]

What has the Boston bomber got to with Australia? Planting a bomb to kill people is a lot different to carrying some drugs on a plane for some fast cash.

the death penalty for a 21 yr old is a possibility.
Says he was brain washed by his older brother.

Don't you care if he dies?

He didn't directly kill anyone, just set in motion a substance (in this case a bombing device..pressure cooker?) but similar to drugs...the Bali 9 didn't physically give to the buyers.

We don't need to get into this criminal story.
The question is, is everyone who is in support of stopping the execution in favor for all...or just a few?

 

[mflying]

In my school days...Andrew Chan worked at same McDonald's where I worked. We did few shifts together.



We knew he wasn't up to any good. Generally, we stayed away from him and his mate.

Okay..I guess local authorities had knowledge of him. And he was smuggling druges out of Bali..obviously he must have ppl to let them thru at Sydney airport.. So obviously some one is being quite.

I don't support of drugs or any sort if illigal activity but killing a messed up young kid for taking druges out of country is big No No.

 

[HiEquity]

The question is, is everyone who is in support of stopping the execution in favor for all...or just a few?

For me, I'm against the death penalty in all its forms... Saddam Hussein and terrorists included.

No-one achieves anything by stooping to the same level as the criminals themselves.

 

[jackbak]

the death penalty for a 21 yr old is a possibility.
Says he was brain washed by his older brother.

Don't you care if he dies?

He didn't directly kill anyone, just set in motion a substance (in this case a bombing device..pressure cooker?) but similar to drugs...the Bali 9 didn't physically give to the buyers.

We don't need to get into this criminal story.
The question is, is everyone who is in support of stopping the execution in favor for all...or just a few?

It's not black and white. Nothing is. Personally, I disagree with the death penalty full stop, so I don't want to see any of them die. Others support it for murderers but not drug dealers, others decide on a case by case basis.

 

[nomadic]

the death penalty for a 21 yr old is a possibility.
Says he was brain washed by his older brother.

Don't you care if he dies?

He didn't directly kill anyone, just set in motion a substance (in this case a bombing device..pressure cooker?) but similar to drugs...the Bali 9 didn't physically give to the buyers.

We don't need to get into this criminal story.
The question is, is everyone who is in support of stopping the execution in favor for all...or just a few?

I'm not in favour of a death penalty for anyone. I would even spare George W Bush if he got convicted of war crimes being responsible for the death of millions because he was naive and influenced by others like Donald Rumsfeld.

You're a north American so you've probably heard of the West Memphis Three? I watched both documentaries and the movie recently and this case is a good example of children wrongly convicted who end up on death row.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Memphis_Three

West of Memphis
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2130321/

Paradise Lost: The Child Murders at Robin Hood Hills
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0117293/

A bomb is not similar to drugs. As dex said, drug use is a victimless crime. People who use drugs choose to use them. No-one chooses to get blown up. I'm impressed you could even think they're remotely similar