Bali Nine

[jackbak]

i think this is again the case of you displaying failure to comprehend written text.

majority of people voted that they shouldn't be spared from death penalty. which means they deserve to die.

No I think it's very clear: "Should the Bali nine be granted clemency" - that's a very clear question to me.

If it was meant to be referring to the Bali 2 getting the death sentence then it is a confusing and poorly written poll.

 

[HiEquity]

there is zero difference between the two in the argument you are trying to make.

you are comparing actions of a criminal with the punishment and saying they are exactly the same. which is true in both cases

just shows that your argument is silly

The difference is that one involves locking someone up for a long time and the other involves shooting them repeatedly until they die. If you fail to see that difference as relevant then I am rather at a loss for words...

The argument has been made in this thread that life imprisonment would be worse than execution. If people truly believe that, then give the condemned the option of taking life imprisonment instead - if they felt it really was worse they could keep walking on to the killing field... methinks not many would actually do that, in the absence of suicidal tendencies.

So we all know there is a world of difference between incarceration and execution.

 

[jackbak]

Jackbak,

From the first post in this thread,

As i said, it's a confusing and poorly written poll.

 

[Strannik]

The difference is that one involves locking someone up for a long time and the other involves shooting them repeatedly until they die. If you fail to see that difference as relevant then I am rather at a loss for words...

like i said, zero difference, because you are arguing that we shouldn't be behaving like criminals. now you are saying that in one case we shouldn't be behaving like criminals, but in another it's ok. hypocrisy much?

 

[Strannik]

No I think it's very clear: "Should the Bali nine be granted clemency" - that's a very clear question to me.

If it was meant to be referring to the Bali 2 getting the death sentence then it is a confusing and poorly written poll.

clemency is not a box of chocolates that people can just gift to someone by itself. it relates to a certain punishment. if people don't think that clemency should be granted, it means they agree with the punishment.

like i said, you are showing your poor comprehension skills once again

 

[HiEquity]

like i said, zero difference, because you are arguing that we shouldn't be behaving like criminals. now you are saying that in one case we shouldn't be behaving like criminals, but in another it's ok. hypocrisy much?

Fair enough - let me change my wording then.

We shouldn't behave like murdering criminals...

 

[jackbak]

clemency is not a box of chocolates that people can just gift to someone by itself. it relates to a certain punishment. if people don't think that clemency should be granted, it means they agree with the punishment.

like i said, you are showing your poor comprehension skills once again

You're missing the point. I'll spell it out again - the poll refers to the Bali 9 - not the Bali 2.

You can't point to this poll and say the majority support the death penalty. The poll should have asked "do you support the death penalty for the Bali 2. Yes or No".

 

[TMNT]

TMNT - read the poll question and tell me where it refers to the Bali 2 being executed. Actually, just tell me where it refers to the Bali 2 because I've read it quite a few times and it seems to be referring to the Bali 9.

if youve been reading various cases of around the world for denath penalty and non death penatly punsihments, the term clemency is used for death penalty cases only

have you ever heard "so and so granted clemency for their 40 year sentence"???

I doubt it

 

[Strannik]

You're missing the point. I'll spell it out again - the poll refers to the Bali 9 - not the Bali 2.

You can't point to this poll and say the majority support the death penalty. The poll should have asked "do you support the death penalty for the Bali 2. Yes or No".

you're just digging your hole deeper and deeper. bali 9 includes bali 2.

 

[jackbak]

you're just digging your hole deeper and deeper. bali 9 includes bali 2.

And the other 7!

 

[Strannik]

And the other 7!

and the other 7. none of the 9 deserve clemency and each deserves their punishment

 

[MsAli]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/wo...dent-joko-widodo/story-fni0xs61-1227343738544

Dear Mr President, Leader of Indonesia and father of three children,

My name is Raji Sukumaran, and my son, Myuran Sukumaran, was executed in the early hours of Wednesday 29 April 2015 under your instructions.

As I make the preparations to bury my beautiful son, I thought I would share my feelings with you. I thought I would share how my son was reformed, was full of life, love and passion, and who so desperately wanted to live his life in service to help others.

I have made this letter open in the hope that it may help other people or their families, in some way as they sit and wait for you to order their deaths.

I would really like to think that you would be able to understand, if you don?t, then feel free to share this letter with your wife, who I think would understand, one mother to another.

My son doesn?t want another mother, father, sister or brother to go through what we went through. For no grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins or friends should have to deal with what we?ve had to deal with.

I am not sure where you were as the men you ordered to kill my son, and seven others pulled the trigger but I am sure you were far away. My son died knowing all his loved ones were close by waiting in a hotel room to hear the news that he had been executed. My son did commit a serious crime but he also apologised to your country and your people many times.

In the last 10 years while you kept him in prison, he chose to do all within his power to make up for his crime. It wasn?t easy, I am not sure anyone will ever realise how hard it is to try to be a good man in prison, to be a positive role model for other younger prisoners, Indonesian prisoners.

Myu spent many years rehabilitating so many prisoners, he hoped that he could help as many people as possible, to give them a chance to leave prison to go out in the world a little better than they came inside.

Myu helped prisoners who struggled with drug use and many other issues.

My son never asked for his rehabilitation to be enough to free him from prison, all he asked was that he not be killed. Was it too much for you to let him live the remainder of his life in prison? I have heard that many others around you took the time to read and learn of the works of my son, and of Andrew and of the people they helped. Many of whom are now helping other people themselves. I cannot believe that all of his works could not even get you to even read the paper you were signing.

I remember when you were elected as President of Indonesia, my son was celebrating. My son told me that ?Our new President is a man of the people, a person that would support education, rehabilitation and people bettering themselves? and that you would look into everything he had done in the prison.

I guess he was wrong. As human being, I can?t even understand how you could sign a person?s death without looking into their personal circumstances. If you do not read what you are signing how can you know whether the life you are taking belongs to someone who is mentally unwell, or an old man in a wheelchair, or young mother with two children, or a father of two, or a man who has been in your prison for 17 years, or a gospel singer, or two young boys who made foolish mistakes. My son only hoped to live in prison for the remainder of his life so that he could be able to continue his good work, which has become known around the world.

All he wanted was to be given a chance to do that.

I as a mother was punished for 10 years as well for his crime, and I will be punished for the rest of my life now because you took his life. I did not ask you to send my son home. I just asked you not to order his death but instead you ignored me and many others. I asked to meet you, to speak to you but once again you could not even have the courage to face our requests to communicate with you.

Painful ... Raji Sukumaran is comforted by a family member after holding a press conferen
Painful ... Raji Sukumaran is comforted by a family member after holding a press conference at the Grand Liana after seeing her son and Bali 9 ringleader Myuran Sukumaran for the last time before his execution. Picture: Adam Taylor
I will not have the chance to see him get married, have children. Mr President, do you think that your punishment towards my son after he had spent 10 years in gaol reformed and helping others and then executing him is fair and just? Do you as a leader feel that everyone who faces justice in Indonesia is treated fairly and equally? Do you believe that Indonesia has a justice system that doesn?t make mistakes? Do you not hear or read all the stories about corruption in criminal cases?

I think this is something very important ?you have told the thousands and thousands of people in prisons across your country, that no matter how hard you work, no matter how much you change your life, no matter what your personal circumstances are ? you will not receive mercy. You ask them to not try, as I have never heard of anyone in prison around the world doing the works my son has done ? it was still not enough for you to read his clemency application.

Begging for mercy ... Raji Sukumaran cries as she talks to journalists at a hotel in Cilacap, Central Java.
I hope your wife would understand what myself and Andrew Chan?s mother are going through. I felt so helpless as I watched my son walk away, healthy and full of life. I watched as over the last four months you tortured him by making jokes about his life, making him guess the night he would be taken, openly discussing the way in which he would die, parading and humiliating our family.

We made funeral plans for our sons while they were still alive. This was because we were told you the President had not changed your mind, and that you had ordered the executions to be carried out, despite the world wide outcry to let our sons live. I want to ask you to put your family in my situation. Only days before I saw a video in which you said that you did not want Indonesians to be killed overseas.

I know as I write this letter, the death of our children will not make any difference to drug trade in Indonesia. I am sure you know this, and that your reasons for taking these 8 lives had nothing to do with preventing drugs and everything to do with your politics.

I hope that your children, your grandchildren, your nephews and nieces never make a mistake. I also want you to remember when your child falls in love, gets married, makes plans for the future, that Andrew Chan also fell in love, made plans for his future and was executed. How would it feel if this was your son?

I was told as my son said his last words, one of the last things he did was say a prayer for Indonesia. My son sought forgiveness for your country and the men taking his life, as he knew you did not know what you were doing. This was the man you ordered to die. I am not sure whether I could ever forgive you, I hope that I have that much grace and compassion in my heart one day. But I am sure this pain in my heart will stay with me for the rest of my life, and it hurts so much. Think for a second, one of your children is tied to post, and men are lined up in front of them and the fear he would have felt, and then your child is shot through the heart. My son was young and foolish, he did not deserve to suffer like this.

My son will be missed by so many people who love him and so many people are finding it difficult to come to terms with what has happened.

As I finish this letter I pray for the many other men and women whose lives are in your hands, especially those on death row. I pray that you will have the courage to look beyond the politics for they too have families who love them despite their mistakes.

Raji Sukumaran

 

[Ausprop]

a long letter that changes nothing. She should now devote her energies to helping out drug addicts and similar charity work. Some of the blood money she will inherit could be donated to good causes, or paid back to the commonwealth to reimburse at least some of the cost of this debacle.

Sadly, her punishment is less than what thousands of other families are enduring. they don't have a voice though, as no one seems to give a rats.

 

[wategos]

 

[Ausprop]

looks a bit like Obama actually - after a very late night!

 

[Strannik]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/wo...dent-joko-widodo/story-fni0xs61-1227343738544

someone should write her a letter on behalf of all the parents whose children are victims of her son's greed, and have to suffer the loss of loved ones just like she does.

 

[chilliblue]

someone should write her a letter on behalf of all the parents whose children are victims of her son's greed, and have to suffer the loss of loved ones just like she does.

Or alternatively thanking the Indonesians for stopping 100,000 drug hits coming to these shores.

Appreciate the pain that she has gone through and will go through for the rest of her life but at the end of the day it was her child that placed he in that position.

 

[HiEquity]

And yet there is absolutely no evidence in this thread or elsewhere that killing people and inflicting this suffering does anything about drug trafficking. In fact all the evidence demonstrates the death penalty makes no difference.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-26/fact-check3a-does-the-death-penalty-deter3f/6116030

We all know this was a futile gesture from a corrupt judiciary and government appealing to our worst selves for political reasons. It had nothing to do with stopping drug trafficking...

 

[Strannik]

And yet there is absolutely no evidence in this thread or elsewhere that killing people and inflicting this suffering does anything about drug trafficking. In fact all the evidence demonstrates the death penalty makes no difference.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-26/fact-check3a-does-the-death-penalty-deter3f/6116030

We all know this was a futile gesture from a corrupt judiciary and government appealing to our worst selves for political reasons. It had nothing to do with stopping drug trafficking...

blah blah blah

there is no evidence demonstrating the death penalty makes no difference. read your own article, it says it there in plain english that there is no evidence to back up any position, simply because we don't know what the crime rate would be if different punishment was applied.

 

[HiEquity]

blah blah blah

there is no evidence demonstrating the death penalty makes no difference. read your own article, it says it there in plain english that there is no evidence to back up any position, simply because we don't know what the crime rate would be if different punishment was applied.

So why do it?