Calculating Women

[Corsa]

Hi All

I came across this article and thought it would be interesting for some of the ladies on the forum to read "Calculating Women: Many women who are chained by upbringing learn to turn a profit in life"

Basically the article discusses how womens attitude to money, along with their biology, might be holding them back from acheiving true financial security, and if so, what they can do about it!!

In 2004, women still earn less than men, they're the ones more likely to take a career break and sacrifice income to look after children and are more likely to end up with less superannuation.

In the article, Susan Jackson, financial planner and executive director of the Melbourne-based Women's Financial Network says she usually finds one of each of the following attitudes, regardless of age:

(1) I'll find Mr Right and he will come and look after me for the rest of my life. Statistically, Jackson says only about one in 12 can expect that, without interruption by divorce, unemployment, death, illness, injury or simply by not finding Mr Right.

(2) I'll win the lottery, get that inheritance or some other miracle will happen.

(3) I am serious about doing something about my financial future. I want to learn about money, I want to save and invest. I may still find a husband/partner which will mean I can bring something to the relationship and/or maintain my financial independence.
​

Hmmmmm, not very good odds

Full article can be found in this link .

What do some of the women on Somersoft (and the men?) think of this? This is a multi-poll so you can vote more than one option. I would love to hear what peoples views are in this area, any stories of friends and families?

Note: Men can vote, they can just vote what their thoughts are of what women's attitudes are.

Cheers

Corsa

 

[dee]

my sis

Well I'll tell the story of my sister - doesnt quite fit the categories above

She works in the allied health industry.
Two yrs ago she saved for a deposit and bought a ppor in a nice area of adelaide. A newish development suburb which was quite established with a large shopping centre being built down the road.
Meanwhile kept buying things like large screen tv's, cars that looked good etc
Last year she bought an ip nearby neutrally geared that had excellent growth (100% loan)
During this time she didnt really know the intricacies about loans, finance, structure but kept here ears open (sometimes) to suggestions I made.

I do get worried that she doesnt know how much is outgoing and coming in.

Then this year she buys a business with land and building (actually a really good deal) - 100% finance too i think, but with higher interst rates close to 9%
She has a lot to learn about business, but is not really keen on reading books. She hasnt worked out how much she needs to make, or projected cashflows.

Then on the weekend - they went to the caryard looking to sell a car, and downgrade to a bomb to get some extra cash. They end up buying an mr2 spyder!!, on a lease agreement.

ahhhh
At least I can borrow it!

I guess she is the one driving the finance side of things. She hasnt thought out the deals analytically, but has stumbled on really good deals. She is surrounded by people that can give good advice - her accountant, and myself.

Its not just invest invest, money has been spent on a good lifestyle, and a good balance has been achieved.
So for her, she was very motivated and I think the key was that she had knowledgable people surrounding her, she knew people around her that were doing the same things and occasionally asked for advice - everything else just felll into place, without really understanding how it all happened.

 

[Ecogirl]

Corsa
I'd love to say 'option 1' would suit me down to the ground but I was raised to believe that I can do anything I want with my life and I don't need a man to prop me up....so I work my butt off to have the lifestyle that I love as well as spending my free time learning about investment vehicles....pain now whilst saving and have a great furture ahead....that's the theory

my problem at the moment is that if i do find 'mr right' (might be a while cause i can't even find a 'mr right for now'...such is life) then if it does go pear shaped i want my assets protected....so now i'm learning about asset protection....a much more subtle form of a pre-nup....

so i voted 'option 3' b'cos i might never find 'mr right' but at least i'll be happy and confortable on my yacht with some rather gorgeous deck hands who only speak spanish

what a damn good picture that would make

Ecogirl

 

[wish-ga]

we may need another option

I voted for making investments and not having to depend on a husband.

BUT...maybe we need another option. What I really want is to build a portfolio and be passionate and focussed about property...but I would like a husband that has a similar attitude.

I have friends that are with husbands that have an uphill battle because they themself want to get ahead with property but their partner spends all available income, doesn't budget etc.

 

[wish-ga]

leaving yourself vulnerable

What I want is someone who is an equal in this property journey and we can build together. (I work with a lady who has lots of property but if I ask her about it she always says she doesn't know about buying property and types of loans because her husband does it all...I don't want to be like that)

That said and done I notice that Jan Somers books are very geared to couples.

Yes, there are examples of single people too. However, she sometimes advocates putting a property in one name only (usually highest income earner) for tax reasons. If all property is in the husband's name it could get messy in the case of divorce. Sorry to be a bummer but it is a possibility.

There is a book called "What every woman should know about her partners money"

Title is a bit misleading as it is actually about the finances in the marriage. It isn't all about property.

It has situations where women sign anything her husband tells her and end up being a director of the husband's company. When they divorce they have a debt and no property (it was in hubby's name) and have been out of the workforce for years raising a family.

 

[Lplate]

Some women and some men would like others to take care of them.

Some men and some women try to buy dreams - trying to convert $10 into
$1 000 000.

The 'statistics' comparing earnings of men and women are highly suspect and are trotted out by those with hobbyhorses to ride. What about some real stats, say from cohort analysis? Bit like the supposed existence of 'glass ceilings' - catchy but crap.

It's a superficial and frivolous article and proves that some women advisors and some men advisors speak twaddle.

 

[duncan_m]

Yes, there are examples of single people too. However, she sometimes advocates putting a property in one name only (usually highest income earner) for tax reasons. If all property is in the husband's name it could get messy in the case of divorce. Sorry to be a bummer but it is a possibility.

Actually it wont be any messier than normal at all.. Assets purchased during the course of the marriage are considered Marital Assets irregardless of who's name is on the title.

 

[Jamie]

The 'statistics' comparing earnings of men and women are highly suspect and are trotted out by those with hobbyhorses to ride. What about some real stats, say from cohort analysis?

Do you have these stats to back up your argument Lplate?

.

 

[Peter_Tersteeg]

The article was a little dissapointing as it implied that partners who make investment decisions together are somehow inferior to women making decisions for themselves. Many people on these forums will happily tell you that they do better working as a team by using their individual skills together, they can acheive more than if they had acted indepenantly.

Women who leave investment decisions to their partners can be in a risky proposition if they end up single some day, but I'd like bo believe that by working together a couple can use this to strengthen the bond between them.

There's also a lot of men out there who's best plan for acheiving financial independance is winning the lottery, and even a few who wouldn't mind meeting a rick hieress

 

[Corsa]

The article was a little dissapointing as it implied that partners who make investment decisions together are somehow inferior to women making decisions for themselves.

Hi PT_Bear, thanks for your post!!

I thought that article was saying that women are more likely to be wealthier (if in a couple) than if they stayed single, and that the risks of remaining single or divorcing where high, which means that women need to be able to be self sufficient in this area and not just delegate decision making to their partners. I agree with you though, that a couple working together to acheive financial success is going to be more successful then those working as individuals. The other point I agree on is that this article could equally apply to men waiting for Mrs Right, winning the lotto, or investing and saving for the future as well.

Some women and some men would like others to take care of them.
Some men and some women try to buy dreams - trying to convert $10 into
$1 000 000. The 'statistics' comparing earnings of men and women are highly suspect and are trotted out by those with hobbyhorses to ride. What about some real stats, say from cohort analysis? Bit like the supposed existence of 'glass ceilings' - catchy but crap.
It's a superficial and frivolous article and proves that some women advisors and some men advisors speak twaddle.

Hi Lplate, thanks for your reply, I really appreciate it. It is interesting that your point is that women and men should both be treated equally in this area. I agree some men and women play the lotto game as a means for obtaining riches. I am not sure that women have caught up to men in the earning stakes particularly in the areas of superannuation or in general wealth creation. The only statistics I can give you (as most people wont talk about pay) is using the AMP Wealth Calculator as a guideline. AMP Calculator Link This calculator give the eg of a single male and single female in between the age of 24-35 and home owners, earning $50k a year in Sydney, the the highest salary that single men in this group earn is $72,000 whereas the highest salary that single women earn in this group is $64,000 which is quite a substantial difference. I understand your point that the article is superficial and frivolous, however I would prefer to think that the article is seeking to try and create more awareness for women to take control of their financial future on their own, or within a couple, rather than relying on prince charming to come and rescue them. Perhaps more attention needs to be given to males in this position also, who knows?

What I want is someone who is an equal in this property journey and we can build together. (I work with a lady who has lots of property but if I ask her about it she always says she doesn't know about buying property and types of loans because her husband does it all...I don't want to be like that)

Hi Wishga, if I could answer as well, I would say that I am looking for an equal partner in the property journey - I dont want a man who will do everything or a situation where I do everything, I want to share the job of creating financial freedom.

my problem at the moment is that if i do find 'mr right' (might be a while cause i can't even find a 'mr right for now'...such is life) then if it does go pear shaped i want my assets protected....so now i'm learning about asset protection....a much more subtle form of a pre-nup....

Ecogirl, I am with you there!

Its not just invest invest, money has been spent on a good lifestyle, and a good balance has been achieved.

Perhaps that is part of the key, is to have balance in all areas, not just living without, but to enjoy the journey (to quote Sunstone )

Thanks for your responses all

Cheers

Corsa

 

[Lplate]

Corsa
Hi
I think some of the difference is attributable to higher representation of women in temporary, casual and part-time work. Also, these are areas where it has been easy to reduce remuneration and working conditions.

The article makes women look silly, whereas the young women I meet seem to be more than willing to budget and save but they usually don't earn enough to do much with it. The young men are in a similar position.

With superannuation, like any investment, what matters is how soon you start not necessarily the larger amounts you can throw into the pot later.

But young people generally could have difficulty generating much in the way of early savings to invest early because of low pay and the insecurity and discontinuity of work. Not a good environment in which to make long term commitments.

User pays has eaten into the resources of middle and lower income earners.

There is no great incentive to invest in products which do not earn well. Well super hasn't been brilliant, has it?

My main point is that the writer was simplistic and attention-grabbing and did a disservice to the group she was claiming to advise.

 

[chrispy]

Need another Option

Corsa

How about an option of achieved financial independence.

Not all contributors on this forum are trying to achieve, some have actually made it. Both male and female

Chris

 

[Peter 14.7]

Sometimes, it hard to beee...a Woman

Interesting article but I have thought long and hard and I dont think I can give an opinion as a man.

I know heaps of professional financially/career sucessful women and I can't work them out. I think they themselves find it hard. Baby now or later or never, career versus family, life partner or friends, works versus home, degree orlife experiences!

I glad to be male! If we get a little gut, never help around the house, have grey hair, work our life away, own a sportscar and never see the family we are a good provider.

A women would be criticised as being ugly, lazy, selfish, career crazy, spoilt and neglectful.

So I feel very sorry for Women today. It seems, according to peer pressure, to be any good, they all have to:

Be as tough as Madelline Allbright

Have the body of Elle

Keep house like Tonia Toddman

Be as sexy as Marilyn Monroe

Cook like Nigella Lawson

Care like Princess Dianna

and now

Invest like Donald Trump

Why not the option

meet your life partner and live a great future together as a team with joint goals and responsiblilties for all aspects of your happiness?

Peter 147

 

[Lplate]

Most people have to fend for themselves and all encounter challenges and blockages along the way. With all of the publicity about the federal govt cost-shifting the payment of pensions to individuals, any woman who isn't motivated to build up resources and who hasn't picked up a few clues on how to do it, either has no money to invest or has deliberately chosen to spend what she gets on lifestyle.

But then there are just as many men who do the same.


There will always be gold diggers, male and female. My spouse wasn't like that, however if I ever partnered again - which is very unlikely( ) - I would insist on a pre-nuptial agreement.

Women do very well IMHO especially in the Family Law Court, so I wouldn't be wasting any sympathy.

I do think the feminist chorus about women always being victims is more than a bit tired after 30+ years of continuous tub-thumping. One of the best (worst) lines I have heard is that men discriminate against women because they die earlier and the women partners left behind (!) have to provide for themselves for a longer period. Aw shucks!

 

[Lissy]

Lplate
Perhaps you should watch the top 30 music videos one weekend, and realise that this is the image our teenagers are being fed of the role women play in relationships and society.
A sickeningly high proportion of these clips feature skinny, breast enhanced, scantily clad females, draping themselves all over the male singer, his fancy car and fancy house, usually multiple women for every guy. The female singers don't fare much better.
Option 1 isn't as dead as we'd all like to believe. Personally I think there is still more room for feminist tub thumping!
But then again, I abhor the victim mentality too, people are responsible for their choices in life. Having said that, though, the more positive role models we can provide the better. Positive role models lead to people discarding the role of victim and making positive choices for themselves.
at least, that's what I hope!! I certainly aim to be a positive role model for any other women if I possibly can, and encourage them to be the best they can be.

 

[ani]

Lplate

If someone didn't do the feminist tub thumping or general tub thumping, nothing would change.

The first few loans I applied for I had to have a male guarantor. Didn't matter that they earnt less than me and had less assets as long as they were male.
Now that really makes sense.

So I'm proud to have been one of those "feminist tub thumpers" that fought long and hard for equal rights for women.

There were a lot of inequalities that don't exist now so people assume they never did.

I agree with Lissy about the female role models we mainly see in the media. I wonder if we have progressed very far at all.

cheers
ani

 

[Corsa]

I had dinner with a group of girlfriends the other night (Dentist, Lawyer, Scientist, Teacher, Accountant), I am the accountant. We are all 27/28.

The Dentist has been working in London for past 5 years, earning equivalent $130k AUS. She "forgot" to pay tax one year so now she has a $40k AUS debt in london that she now has to work off. No assets just credit card debt and tax debt.

The Lawyer has her own little unit, which she has now turned into an IP.

The Scientist is saving and contributing to a managed fund, but does not have an IP nor will have in the distant future.

The Teacher has no savings and no IP

The Acocuntant (me) has a few IP's and a share portfolio

So we are discussing life, love, and the Universe and we were talking about how the Dentists ex boyfriend will be a millionaire before he his 30 because he owns a nightclub, his own business, and a couple of properties. And they were seriously talking about this as if it was not possible or probable that they could also acheive this if they wanted to. I feel that even though some of these girls may not expect Mr Right to come along and rescue them, I am not entirely sure how they are going to be able to provide for there financial future with or without a man at this stage.

I guess you could say we are a mixed bag, representative of how some young women think and respond to financial issues today.

I appreciate LPlates views in respect of womens issues and sharing them with us. And Chrispy, yes some women and men have made it. I had to laugh at Peter 147 comments, its interesting how that expecations to look good, cook good, have a great home, this lifestyle all comes at such a high price, perhaps not leaving much left over for investing?

In someways, a lot of people who may frequent Somersoft, may have a skewed view of the public perception, we have to keep in mind that investing to become financially independant is still a relatively uncommon view of both men and women in our society.

But I am with Lissy and Ani on this. I think that some women are led to believe (through clever marketing) that their looks, bodies and material possessions like make-up and clothes is what matters along with the comes a good looking male who will provide for them. Financial Independance is not high up there on the priority list. One only needs to watch one episode of "The Apprentice" to know that the women have leveraged their looks so far to get a bit ahead of the male team.

As well as Lissy, I hope to be a positive role model for other women and encourage them to take control over their financial situation. Afterall, that is, at the end of the day, the most we can ever hope to have control over, our own views and choices.

 

[Peter 14.7]

Hi Corsa

It is uplifting to read your posts. I am glad you enjoyed my comment. If I ever have a girl I know where to send her for role modeling.

Hi Ani

Good Point. It is easy to forget in 2004 that women did have it a lot harder in past times.

Even married girls had it tough. I remember when my wife and I in 1989 bought our first home the female lender was adamant we only consider Wife's income for 2-3 years as we would definitely lose it when "she gave up work" to raise our family. Sorry love, but no little 147's yet! How a single woman got a loan in this mindset is beyond me!

Sadly, Women are behind the eight ball when it comes to financial success and being treated equally in business.

Example….I wonder how a man entering a business meeting would feel, if all the other men shook every one else’s hand on greeting except him? Answer... ask any woman in business.

Regards, Peter 147

 

[Ecogirl]

Sadly, Women are behind the eight ball when it comes to financial success and being treated equally in business.

Example….I wonder how a man entering a business meeting would feel, if all the other men shook every one else’s hand on greeting except him? Answer... ask any woman in business.

Peter
I get this everyday working in the construction industry - especially in Client mtgs. Also many men just don't know how to react to being given directions by females (especially the over 50s) - they are getting better though.

What really gets under my skin is that when you go to a meeting (or other day to day stuff) they don't seem to be able to make eye contact when you go to shake their hand b'cos they're too busy looking at your chest!! I have learnt not to take it personally. The guys are a lot better than 5 yrs ago and now there are female engineers on site so I'm not the only chick here (and we even have a ladies toilet so we don't have to use the mens).

Mum was telling me that when she wanted a car loan years ago she had to have dad co-sign the loan application (even though it was her car) - not because she had no income but that was the policy of the day.....she was really annoyed but there was nothing she could do....dad thought it was quite funny....

I am so glad that times have changed and I'm thankful to all those women (and men) that have made it possible for me not to be totally constrained by the old way of doing things....I have a brain and I'm allowed to use it!


I could write all day about this but I won't - must go and do some work...
Cheers
Ecogirl

 

[Aceyducey]

Mum was telling me that when she wanted a car loan years ago she had to have dad co-sign the loan application (even though it was her car) - not because she had no income but that was the policy of the day.....she was really annoyed but there was nothing she could do....dad thought it was quite funny....

Maybe one day we'll get to the point where any loan applications by a male have to be countersigned by a female - after all that'd be more commonsensical - wouldn't it?

(Jas says yes!)

Cheers,

Aceyducey