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greek capitalism:
You have two cows
you join the eu, and may only buy cow feed in euros
germany is very good at making milk as well as cow feed
you cannot compete with germany in the milk market
german banks lend you money to buy supplies from german companies even though they know that you still wont be able to compete
you find yourself in massive debt and want to leave eu
germany refuses, and instead gives you a bail out to pay this round of interest, so long as you agree to sign over both cows, all future calves, the farm, and the acropolis
you find yourself in an inescapable debt trap and imploding economy
the world decides that all greeks are lazy
The world decides that all Greeks are lazy
IMO, that happened quite a long time ago...
Out of curiosity, being a property investor, you no doubt have had dealings with a lot of Greek people. Might I ask, do they strike you as a lazy bunch?
I mean, it seems strange to me that, looking around, most of the Greeks here in Australia seem to have property portfolios as long as their last names, and yet, by some magic coincidence, Greeks in Greece (who work an average of 42 hours a week btw, compared to 38 in Australia) are a bunch of bludgers.
I mean, Spain seems to be in the same spot as Greece, as is Italy, Ireland, Portugal etc and yet, there aren't many Greeks in those countries. Could it be, maybe, just maybe, that all of this economic chaos has little to do with ethnicity and maybe the common factor here, which is EU membership?
Does thinking that make me a conspiracy theorist?
IMO, that happened quite a long time ago...
Still waiting for the Greek builders to finish the Parthenon. I paid them in advance for the last bit and they never finished the job.
Still waiting for the Greek builders to finish the Parthenon. I paid them in advance for the last bit and they never finished the job.
No no no no no you don't understand - that look is the "unfinished feature" specified in the schedule of finishes that makes the place look "ancient". And, given how many tourists flock to the Parthenon, it is clearly value adding at its best
The way you're talking, it is almost as if Greece did not exist as a nation before the EU. When Greece was on the Drachma, it was fine - people worked, lived, made babies, died etc and life was generally pretty good for the Greeks.I know a lot of Greeks (and Italians) who are very hard workers and very industrious. I also know some at the other end of the scale. I haven't seen any real evidence to conclude one group of people as more or less industrious than any others. I don't buy into those with the blue hats being any better or worse than the green hats or the red hats or the yellow hats or the green and gold hats. I see only individuals.
But having spent a bit of time in Greece before the GFC a few things did strike me:
- There was a culture (as in Italy) of lack of respect for the State - not paying taxes, cash economy, local independence, Govt jobs, super bureaucracy to get anything done etc. There seemed to be a fatalistic attitude towards changing any of that.
- Low level nepotism and corruption are far more prevalent and an accepted part of getting anything done or getting jobs / uni places.
- Industries like agriculture were hopelessly inefficient - tiny farms run with massive subsidies (many courtesy of the EU) to keep them above water. I had no idea how people could survive on them when I think of Australian agriculture.
- There were a lot of infrastructure projects (bridges / roads etc) with big signs saying "funded by the EU".
However I take your point about the EU and the strength of the euro not helping but there was plenty Greece could have done to prevent this. Hopefully the current malaise will go some way towards fixing the problems like the above - only a real shake up could do it the way it was so entrenched. So there may be a longer term benefit to all this, as painful as it undoubtedly is in the meantime.
I truly hope that Greece will come out of this a more professional and industrious place that plays to its strengths. I'm actually pretty confident of this result eventually although no doubt it will take awhile.
Sorry for going OT - back to the humour!
The way you're talking, it is almost as if Greece did not exist as a nation before the EU. When Greece was on the Drachma, it was fine - people worked, lived, made babies, died etc and life was generally pretty good for the Greeks.
The Greeks didn't much respect the state, and paid few taxes, but the country seemed to work okay on a private pension system.
There was low level nepotism and yet, the country seemed to function.
Industries like agriculture, though inefficient by Australian standards, seemed to produce enough food for people to eat and keep the farmer in business without EU subsidy.
The infrastructure that existed, though not as glamorous as that constructed with EU funding, was locally owned and managed to support life (by contrast, much of the infrastructure in Greece is now foreign owned).
So at the end of the day, people really need to start understanding that Greece wasn't Afghanistan before EU membership. Greeks weren't a tribe of lost Amazonian indians before EU membership. It was a thriving place.
The bottom line is that the best thing that Greece could have done is not join the EU in the first place, and the best it can do right now it to get out of the EU immediately.
Greek laziness is not the problem. The EU is the problem.
Ah. I see. Did Spain, Portugal, Italy, and Ireland partake of this "keep the commies out" slush fund?Except from Post-WW2 to the collapse of the Soviet Union, Greece was hugely bankrolled by the West in 'Keep the Commies at bay money'. When this was cut back, Greece started sniffing out the money of the EU.
Well yes, but whose fault is that? Is it solely the debtors fault when a creditor offers them piles of money? Where is the due diligence on the part of the people who lent Greece money?I think the problem many people have with the Greek economy (not its people) is that it is largely inefficient in that whilst it productive capabilities are low, living standards have been inflated by external money to ridiculous levels. Whilst the population has its issues with authority and tax dodging is still widespread, the balancing of books is very difficult and means that FURTHER cuts have to be made to wages, public sectors jobs, services etc.
Would you really like to get into a discussion about authoritarian government versus libertarian anarchism?I find the 'hate' of government and authority to be short-sighted, as the first step of expecting your government to work for its populations benefit is to respect the institution, not necessarily the people running it however.... Soon as you disregard the governments authority and abilities to run effectively, you essentially write them a notice that they are not under scrutiny, similar to an ineffective manager who doesn't watch over their staff, resulting in lower productivity.
So honestly, why would you respect such a "democracy"?
Ocean Architect said:So honestly, why would you respect such a "democracy"?
Because it is still the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried from time to time.
(With apologies to Winston Churchill for the mis-quote)
With the amount of money that has been lent to Greece, I'm sure they can afford to finish off the Parthenon now. They might even build another Olympus.