China Triggers the Recession Alarm

let me guess:
Gold
Reason:
Its a universal mechanism of exchange that cannot be controlled directly by politicians and central bankers.

The real underlying 'price' of gold is controlled because of the fact that its increase in quantity is determined over the long term by its extraction rate, ie how much 'new gold' is found and dug from the ground (from memory this is only a few % a year). The underlying 'price' of a curency is essentially determined by its central bankers (who control the interest rate and the physical amount of the currency)

Therefore the underlying attractiveness of gold is one doesnt know how currencies will interrelate with each other (ie which currency will be 'more valuable than the other'), however the pricing of gold relative to 'purchasing' power should be maintained over the long term, given that purchasing power is expressed as a relationship between the currency and the good. However gold should have a relatively stable relationship over the long term between the currency and the good. ie for strong currencies the price of gold/currency will be weaker (however expressed in terms of the 'good', its more constant) and vice versa.

Therefore if one is buying gold in US$, if the australian dollar depreciates, then the purchasing power of the AU$ also depreciates, yet because one holds gold, their purchasing power is better maintained.

If the AU$ appreciates, then usually this is because commodity prices are higher (which includes gold), therefore the US$ price of gold should also be appreciating, thereby maintaining the purchasing power for Australian holders.

A holder of an income producing asset might not receive the same degree of purchasing power parity if the income received (especially after it is taxed as taxable income) is less than the loss in purchasing power. There is also the market pricing risk of the underlying asset (ie the pricing of the underlying asset in currency terms can move over time)

Secondly a purchaser of income producing assets might receive an even lower degree of purchasing power parity, whereby that asset is usually income lossing (ie negatively geared residential property) and one is hoping for a capital gain. This produces a potential double whammy in that the asset price declines both in fiat currency terms and in purchasing power terms.

Thats the theory anyway:D.

And personally i think things are more multi dimensional than this. And i think one of the big risks is that this way of thinking works well in an inflationary environment, but is yet to be assessed in times of a deflationary environment (not a risk for australia, but definately a risk on a global basis)

Therefore for myself i am concentrating on income producing assets whereby that income generation is sufficiently high that i am compensated for potential loss in terms of fiat currency depreciation. Further more with the high AU$, i have a low risk (exchange pricing risk) of being able to diversify into international assets that like wise generate high income (that is either used for dividend payments or share buybacks at low PE's, overseas equities tend to have lower pay out ratio's than their australian counterparts).
 
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FYI According to the Australian Coal Association most of Australias Coal exports go to Japan, almost three times as much as China actually.
http://www.australiancoal.com.au/the-australian-coal-industry_coal-exports.aspx

Growth in LNG exports will be massive going forward.

Only on thermal coal I think. Though forecasts have them to overtake Japan and reach ~160mt of thermal coal imports by 2015 on Wood Mac's numbers.

Will stick some graph up tomorrow - in fact was just reviewing somebody's presentation with a slide on this very point.

Re LNG, it will be massive if some of these big projects get commissioned. In the meantime I'll be waiting... waiting... waiting.
 
Joe, I've been here for a looooong time and the other oldtimers know what my answer would be. They disagree with me, and I disagree with them. I don't wish to start another flame war.

If that was a serious question and you want a totally free, totally unqualified opinion you will need to PM me. :)

thanks, it is a gen question, so will message you. Was not trying to start any arguments. Might have to be after work when I have time to quiz ya.

Cheers.
 
At last somebody who understands China:
http://www.businessspectator.com.au...-Qishan-pd20111124-NVQJ8?OpenDocument&src=sph

Main points of the article:

- Aussies worry about China’s reduced industrial activity for the wrong reasons.

- The CCP has only 2 possible responses to a slow-down: a massive boost in domestic consumption or in fixed investment (a big consumer of Aus commodities).

- China is massively underweight in consumption and massively overweight in investment, so the healthy response would be to boost the former and reduce the latter. However to do so would harm the large State owned conglomerates controlled by the apparatchiks and eventually cause the CCP to lose power.

- So in the short term, to ensure its political survival the CCP has no other option than to continue boosting investments to the detriment of consumption, thus guaranteeing a steady market for Aussie exports.

- But in the longer term, the above unbalance will implode, putting our exports at risk.

My own take of this: As has happened many times before, politics will kill the economy and in turn the economy will kill the political system. As weird as it sounds in the midst of crisis in Europe and the US, China is going to be the one most unstable. Just not for now.

Sign of the times: Chinese upper classes preparing their little nests in Western countries in droves. This is happening in my own extended family as we speak.

Hilarious for all the wrong reasons.

The only reason Chinese upper classes prepare little nests in western countries is because many have been involved in some form of corruption to get to where they are and are at risk of being imprisoned.

If you ran a major organisation in China and you fled, it doesn't mean you can flee with the company. Business goes on as usual in China. Look at Gome as an example.

The CCP will happily drop investment to procure the second phase of growth. All countries do it as they advance.
 
I stand corrected. Japan is the largest coal importer, but China is closing in the gap. See graph below.

More importantly though, Japan and India will be as affected if China slows down. It isn't just a Chinese decrease in consumption - it's also a Japanese and Indian decrease.

One on the left is coking. One on the right is thermal
 

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Steady on...settle...

The graph clearly shows the two samples moving in tandem right ?.....but on different multiples as in the ones you mentioned above.....but the direction/trend is the same.....man you get overheted don't you ?

who's getting overheated?

of course it's moving in mutliples, our economy is a fraction of the US.

my point was patterns like this aren't just co-incidence. i'd like to see the patterns against the UK, Canada, EU etc for comparo.

I have no idea where to look so if theres anyone out there who can find it, it would help!
 
Deltaberry I was not talking about forcasts but the here and now, no need to show charts showing projections by someone flogging a product as the fact remains Australia currently exports three times as much coal to Japan as China. But you could be forgiven for thinking its the other way round.

Ofcourse a slow down in China would have flow on effects for others its just I dont think it is as simple as you said. "China falters, Australia falls simple"

My whole point was exports to China while very important (especially Iron Ore) they are not as important as the MSM would have you believe. Happy to be corrected but almost 80% of our exports still go elsewhere.
 
What is important is to be an early mover. BHP,RIO and FMG got their projects up and running early. Whatever happens now will not effect their operations - they will continue producing through any slump. If their profit margins suffer the shareholders and governments (tax gatherers) will suffer but the industries will roll along. This is why the Bob Brown's philosophy of killing the goose is sooo short sighted.

Mt Isa never died during that long, soul destroying resources slump. They kept mining, smelting, refining and employing.

It wasn't long ago "America sneezes, Australia catches cold" was the catch cry. Today the US has the flu and we are looking to China. (decoupling) "The king is dead. Long live the king!" If China tires? Ships go where you point them.
 
Mt Isa never died during that long, soul destroying resources slump. They kept mining, smelting, refining and employing.

.

Ahhh MIM, once upon a time held them so long almost had a soft spot for the little doggy sold em for a buck to just get my money back only to see them go up and up and taken over, same thing happened to Normandy imagine what that business would be worth now? Its market cap used to make Newcrest look like a little baby..
I wish I understood trends back then I just thought it was all voodoo..;)
 
God I remember this at the beginning of the GFC. Australian Equities are 100% good because we have decoupled from the rest of the world due to China. Yet the ASX200 fell more than the Dow. lol

The answer to that might be more political than economic. I'm out of the ASX except for a few in a speccie miner, until the next election is called.

BTW At the beginning of the GFC MOST commentators didn't believe in decoupling, and it is still a bit shaky.
 
There's only one way I see this unfolding.
Global private credit is going to freeze up, forcing govts to print and ease.
The fx, share, and commodities markets will ride the QE cash injections, but it will end very very nasty this time; and even worse the time after.

The same freight train the Austrians warned of over a decade ago is in our faces. And even slow Glenn Stevens has finally woken up to what he should have been preparing for 10 years ago.
 
If they do go down it's gonna hurt there is no doubt about that . If people think skimming 10 or 20% or whatever the hell it is , off some form of income or trade won't make a massive difference , then they've never ran a business.
They also have a pretty short memory of even right here on Somersoft just pre' Rudd FHG boost.

Personally I think from a logical point there's no doubt China has to slow and quite severely , and of course that'll effect us and many other countries which will also effect us .
You can't have the kind of growth and artificial prop ups that they've been creating , just like in our housing boom , without some form of balance and payback coming into play later , it's happened every time with any country that's tried it.
Don't forget and again , short memories around here , China injected trillions only 18mths back - which rekicked off their then beginning to slow economy . Those spendings effects , just like here and everywhere else that have tried it , will be running out about now so it's gonna get very interesting from here on.
 
but china is COMMUNIST, they owe money to themselves!

why can no one see this? they dont owe anyone else. the central govt printed money to lend to the regional govts. thats like canberra printing moeny to lend to the states without the RBA involved.

savvy?
 
Basically - China produces "stuff"...

Once this "stuff" is produced it is either consumed by domestic Chinese consumers or exported.

With regards to domestic consumption - the Chinese are notorious savers. They have come from a communist back ground where the govt provided pensions (etc). These benefits have disappeared over time and the Chinese mentality is now to save - to fund retirement. As such, the Chinese middle and upper classes do NOT have sufficient domestic spending power to consume (i.e. soak up) all of the excess inventories of "stuff" that has been produced domestically. This then only leaves the Chinese economy the option of exporting their goods...

China has two large export markets - being the Good Old US of A and Europe.

If these two economies (USA & Europe) continue to slow down then countries like Australia will begin to feel the heat as China reduces demand for Australian products (or raw materials as is the case) as Chinese domestic inventories of "stuff" continue to grow....

China sneezes...and perhaps Australia catches a cold...

Food for thought...
 
but china is COMMUNIST, they owe money to themselves!

why can no one see this? they dont owe anyone else. the central govt printed money to lend to the regional govts. thats like canberra printing moeny to lend to the states without the RBA involved.

savvy?

Thank you. Glad someone understands this... all this talk of China debt problems just annoys me.

NickZed, not quite... they will still be spending money on infrastructure. The Government have been saving ~35% of their GDP for the last 20-30 years... they are well cashed up to keep spending money on infrastructure to move more of their population into urbanization. It's not stopping anytime soon. Infrastructure spending only accounts for 7-8% of their GDP, IIRC.

China have been applying the brakes for some time now and will still grow at over 9% this year... the Government are set to loosen the brakes on December 6 - http://www.businessspectator.com.au...t-controls-P4JRS?OpenDocument&src=hp7&src=amm
 
Haha the Chinese do not come from a "communist" background, unless you're referring to a temporary socialist state of affairs back in the 60s and 70s.
 
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