Engineering Study

[WinstonWolfe]

The youngest is in year 12 and is considering studying Civil or Mining Engineering next year at Uni of Qld or Qld Uni of Technology.

He is doing pre-requisites English, Maths A and B, and physics....but not recommended Chemistry and Maths C.

His grades will probably get him into QUT but not UQ at this point.
His favorite subject is geography which is reflected in his grades.

I'd be interested in any info/views re demand for engineering graduates in the foreseeable future and which specialty might be better.

I'd like him to have more motivation and have sought paid or unpaid holiday work/experience in a relevant firm to get a clear idea of what engineers do. But.....

Have suggested he contact the human resource depts of larger mining companies and ask what graduates they have stronger demand for, and scan the online ads to see which get paid most as indication of supply and demand.

 

[joanmc]

HI WW
we have had 3 engineers in our family! My grandfather, hubby and hubby's BIL. Grandfather was civil and as you live in Brisbane you would have been in many of his buildings (city hall), hubby has Mechanical and pretty much never used it, BIL is in mining and doing quite nicely.
What is your son's preference? if he likes out of the way places -mining can take him to SE Asia, PNG as well as all over Aus, whereas I guess civil is often more city based.
As a side note hubby doesn't regret not using his as he was bullied into doing it and never really enjoyed it. Although he DID meet me through uni......

 

[Fudge]

The youngest is in year 12 and is considering studying Civil or Mining Engineering next year at Uni of Qld or Qld Uni of Technology.

He is doing pre-requisites English, Maths A and B, and physics....but not recommended Chemistry and Maths C.

His grades will probably get him into QUT but not UQ at this point.
His favorite subject is geography which is reflected in his grades.

I'd be interested in any info/views re demand for engineering graduates in the foreseeable future and which specialty might be better.

I'd like him to have more motivation and have sought paid or unpaid holiday work/experience in a relevant firm to get a clear idea of what engineers do. But.....

Have suggested he contact the human resource depts of larger mining companies and ask what graduates they have stronger demand for, and scan the online ads to see which get paid most as indication of supply and demand.

If it is Engineering, hope he likes his maths.

It is 3 straight years of it.

I did the same WW, (i.e. not doing chemistry in Year 12....I did it up to year 10). You do do a common first year, and Chemistry is one of the early subjects.

I just went through my wardrobe two weeks ago and threw out all my assignments, books and reference material. He could of had them.

The contact hours for the course (over the full 4 years) is considered to be pretty demanding. I can remember, I was starting lectures at 0900 and finishing lectures at 2100 3 - 4 days / week in year 3. (Compared to business degress and acoounting, it is a long haul)

Anyway, you know that Mining is booming, so I can't see this slowing up in the immediate future. The good thing about civil engineering, is that there are always infrastructure projects going on, whether it is in metropolitan or regional areas or outback with mines, etc. Heaps of choices.

We have just had a couple of uni students through for work experience during their holis. Don't know if we get school leavers in??

In terms of selecting a Uni though, it would have to be "the University for the Real World" wouldn't it. (I am a bit biased)

Regarding looking online and seeing who gets paid more...... I would say rather follow which path you like, as the money is quite profitable which ever way you go. (Mining is well known for its high prices though, due to site conditions, agreements, environment, roster, location, etc)

(In saying this though, I am Civil engineer and am mobilising mine site for infrastructure works in North Qld, and you do get compensated with FIFO on mines, with attractive site / project allowance, LAHA, with having all meals and accomodation provided for, etc.)


F

 

[WinstonWolfe]

Thanks Joan and Fudge.

He doesn't really have a preference at the moment. He likes a bit of adventure and the outdoors, but also is more extraverted than a lot of engineers I've met. I think he could fall in with whoever he is with. Enjoys army cadets and getting out on bivvies.

I don't think he is the best math brain. Calculus would stump him, but I am sensing as his brain matures, he'll grasp it better, hence prepared to provide a tutor for maths and chemistry at uni if necessary. I think he has a better visuospatial intelligence, hence his enjoyment of geography.

Fudge, QUT has always had the rep for being more practical, even when I went to QIT in the 70s.

We know a few engineers and are trying to get as broad a pic as possible.
One of them suggested CQU at Rocky has a 6 mth prac component and employers like to have the undergrads around that long to see if they are ok before employing them.

I suppose my main concern is that he get into one that has better risk adjusted remuneration. Mining engineering I shoudl imagine is a bit more up and down in employment prospects. Nevertheless, I am on the bullish side for Australian mining over the next 20-30 years.

Fudge, do you have a family yet? The families I know where the hubby does fifo suffer a bit. And many of the mines seem to run 12 hour shifts, which is a bit tough as you get older. Suppose one can always do a post grad dip or masters, and cross into another field down the track.

Anyway, appreciate any feedback whatsoever.

 

[HiEquity]

Hi WW

I did engineering and didn't really like it that much. Too busy just trying to pass exams to really notice the fact though. Found the commerce degree more interesting. Got out into the workforce and disliked the technical aspects / calculations immensely - hard and boring work for poor pay. So I got into a more commercial space developing projects overall rather than just the technical bits and liked that more. Liked it best when I was out on site but that wasn't particularly well paid either so here I am back in the office getting by...

It's too hard to predict the lucrative bits of conventional engineering as things go in and out of fashion quite randomly, although if you are interested in chasing money then oil and gas engineering would have to be a pretty good bet. Lots of young people are avoiding the discipline because they reckon there won't be any left over their career span hence there will be a fair bit of a supply shortage and a high capacity to pay = good $$$ I would imagine. I'd be retired by now if I had chased that instead of this green stuff... (sigh...)

As for calculus, do not underestimate the failure rate in engineering degrees. In my cohort, one in five would have actually finished and got their degree. I was best in physics at my school but only just passed first year electrical eng physics with a 51% mark! Still don't understand the Schrodinger equation... this stuff ain't no walk in the park!

These days of course there are more generic engineering degrees available so you can get some more knowledge before choosing your specialisation which is a great thing because if something floats your boat you will enjoy it, be good at it and therefore make a lot of money out of it all at the same time. Previously we just chose stuff based on some hazy idea of what we thought it was about before finding out we hated it or were no good at it!

IMO this is one of the more difficult decisions your son will ever have to make. Keep in mind, as I'm sure you will, that he has to own the decision for anything at all to work...

 

[WinstonWolfe]

Thx HE. Appreciate your frankness. I agree the decision is one of the biggest. He is under no pressure to pursue engineering. He knows his higher level math needs work. He has done several vocational tests already, and if his final grades are not strong enough, he has chosen as his next option town planning.

Although he goes to a reasonably good private school, I don't think the course work has prepared him well for the content and discipline required at university. I think he'll have a bit of a shock trying to keep up with the pace the content is delivered. And there's only so much influence I've been able to bring to bear on him to focus and apply himself.

In some respects I think his powers of concentration are immature, and he might be better not starting for a year or two, and in the mean time getting some manual work in the industry. Though the last thing I'd want is two years goofing off not learning anything important about life and money.

 

[brrmm]

WW, my hubby is a civil engineer working in road/bridge construction.

Company he works for always experience trouble finding civil engineers in Aus and mostly have to outsource to other countries to find engineers. Presently the company have "gingerbeers" from Sth Africa; Indonesia; India; Sri Lanka.

His company also have a cadetship arrangement (as do most engineering firms) where engineering students are taken in during their studies to work (work experience, but do get paid $$) during uni breaks. They are then signed up after graduation now so the company have a steady stream of engineers.

Shortage of civil engineers = big $$$. And that my friend, is the real truth.

Government are always building infrastructure, so there's a good and bright future there.

I've also been told that high school students are being encouraged to study engineering at uni due the lack of engineers in Aus.

Hope this helps with the decision-making.

Oh, DH has just told me to let you know that Environmental Engineering is a thing of the future too.

Best wishes with it.

 

[Fudge]

Thanks Joan and Fudge.

He doesn't really have a preference at the moment. He likes a bit of adventure and the outdoors, but also is more extraverted than a lot of engineers I've met. I think he could fall in with whoever he is with. Enjoys army cadets and getting out on bivvies.

WW.... engineers, just like all other professions, come in all shapes and sizes. Depends on how one looks on life. I used my engineering qualifications to go work on some of the most challeging and exciting jobs in England, and stayed there for about 9 years travelling all over the place. (I wouldn't call myself, or the guys I went with O/S introverted).

I don't think he is the best math brain. Calculus would stump him, but I am sensing as his brain matures, he'll grasp it better, hence prepared to provide a tutor for maths and chemistry at uni if necessary. I think he has a better visuospatial intelligence, hence his enjoyment of geography.

I wasn't mathematically inclined either, and 3 years of advanced mathematics took a bit of a toll, but it is a good challenge. I was no brain in high school, and just studied like hell around exams time.

I suppose my main concern is that he get into one that has better risk adjusted remuneration. Mining engineering I shoudl imagine is a bit more up and down in employment prospects. Nevertheless, I am on the bullish side for Australian mining over the next 20-30 years.

I would say that with being a CE, you get a fair bit of variety in the field, whereas mining engineers provides services for a particular market. It wouldn't take too much for them to change discipline though. I have worked on roads, bridges, mines, tunnels, dams, railway lines, and Water / sewerage treatment plants. You are always learning something new....well I am anyway.

Fudge, do you have a family yet? The families I know where the hubby does fifo suffer a bit. And many of the mines seem to run 12 hour shifts, which is a bit tough as you get older. Suppose one can always do a post grad dip or masters, and cross into another field down the track.

No, not yet WW, will soon settle down though., if you know what I mean.

F

 

[Fudge]

Although he goes to a reasonably good private school, I don't think the course work has prepared him well for the content and discipline required at university. I think he'll have a bit of a shock trying to keep up with the pace the content is delivered. And there's only so much influence I've been able to bring to bear on him to focus and apply himself.

WW.....I wouldn't worry about his preparedness. Once he moves from secondary to tertiary studies, you get more of a focus on work and living for yourself. With regards to schooling, I went to one of the worst (or possibly THE worst) funded public schools in Logan City (I think you might know of the suburb), and they didn't do a good job of preparing school leavers for the real world. It just boils down to how committed you are, what you put into it, and what you want to get out of it.......but I don't need to tell you this.....I have had some inspirational reads through some of your posts.

In some respects I think his powers of concentration are immature, and he might be better not starting for a year or two, and in the mean time getting some manual work in the industry. Though the last thing I'd want is two years goofing off not learning anything important about life and money.

A gap year could be good. Get a job, and start 'living'. I think it would be somewhat hard to go back to studying full time though after a year or two off.

Cheers,

F

 

[vbplease]

Hi WW, not too long ago I graduated from QUT with a degree in civil eng. I think I can also relate to you son somewhat regarding a love for the outdoors, adventure and geography (I've spent most of my post uni years overseas).

As Fudge said, engineers come in all shapes and sizes... In my opinion a good engineer isn't a walking calculator or textbook since information can be accessed in seconds these days, and most design is done by computer.. instead, one should have an ability to problem solve, attention to detail, thouroughness, organisational skills, ability to think on ones feet, assertiveness and people skills are also an advantage.

I know many engineers that love nothing more than spending the entire day computer modelling, but I can think of a few disciplines that involve a mix of design, site work, interaction with clients, builders and other professionals.. maybe this would be more suited to your son?

Yes the maths can be a bit of a nightmare, but with perseverence I'm sure he can cope if he is handling Maths B ok at the moment? Not having done chemistry is also not a problem, he'll just have to do it as an elective in first year. Regarding QUT, I can't recommend it enough, the lecturers are approachable down to earth people. The tutors are mostly 3rd or 4rth year students and some post-grads, who create a positive learning evironment. There is a good balance of theory and practical work which is viewed favourably by employers.

Needless to say my degree is the best investment I have ever made due to the doors it has opened overseas and back home. In hindsight perhaps a degree in civil construction engineering would have suited me better, and perhaps your son? It would lead to a job in a construction company rather than a design consultancy. Ultimately more outdoor time and interaction with others It would also be more relevant for mining.. but rather than steer him in the direction of the money, I'd suggest let him get a feel for which subjects he likes and run with them.. The beauty of an engineering degree is that there are so many disciplines one could specialise in, and it's not until 3rd year that one chooses their electives. So there is no need to try and focus on one discipline now - one that he may not like?

Work experience would also be a huge help. Construction companies such as Thiess/John Holland (BMD is a personal favourite) can take on students as early as 1st year, likewise with design consultants - there are too many to name. Hope this helps.

 

[Dazz]

G'day WW,


My advice is a bit biased, cos I specialised in Petroleum Engineering and am very thankful I did. The money, the career opportunities and the variety of jobs and locations takes you everywhere except Antarctica and the Barrier Reef.


First off, your son needs to honestly determine how many years of education he has in him before cracking a wobbly. My level was 11.5 yrs before falling off the rails. I needed to go out into the dog-eat-dog harsh adult world and try and compete with no qualifications and no experience. It was tough. Two years of being smashed down in dead end meaningless heavy unappreciated jobs saw me pull my head in and look for a better alternative.


I ended up studying Mining Engineering at Kalgoorlie's School of Mines, where it gets you out of the nancy pancy city campus and into the real world of making money. Being surrounded by company executives all the time, part time jobs are a shoe-in. Large tax free scholarships are thrown around like confetti and vac work, both in July and the 3 month end of year hols are guaranteed, especially by your scholarship company.


It dawned on me though, about half way through the degree, that as a Mining Engineer, you'll end up in places like Laverton, Leonora, and Leinster and a few other nasty places starting with L. We had managers flying over from Mt Isa and Olypmic Dam interviewing everyone to pick amongst the best of us.


I decided to switch to Petroleum at the end of Yr 2, cos it provided an opportunity to travel the globe, but also to live in whatever city you chose, and work wherever you like. Live in Brissy and work in Saudi - no problem. Live in Melbourne and work in Vietnam - no problem.


The vac work for students is unreal in petroleum. Back in '91, along with the 7K pa tax free scholarship, they were paying me $ 1,680 pw to work casually on the rigs and platforms on the NW shelf. That put more than 27K in my pocket as a full time engineering student. Not bad for 20 years ago. Needless to say, I didn't have to phaff about or compromise with silly student jobs like waiting on tables, or taxi driving or working in a bar during the year whilst studying.


Once out in the workforce, the Uni degree etc falls by the wayside. It's all about what you can do and how you fit in and how you perform. The pure calcs side of things may last a year or two, but most folks go on to other far more specific tasks in the oil industry. Don't worry about career longevity either, cos the black stuff ain't going anywhere in a hurry, despite the rhetoric of the green mob. People love their cars and their houses. Your son will be a very old man before anything changes significantly.


If he doesn't want to tackle an Bachelor's engineering degree head on, there are many alternatives to skirt the issue. He could do a simple 3 yr falling off a log BSc, and then switch over after a couple of years work and do a Masters of Engineering by coursework part-time. The Bachelor's for me was 80 units, 10 per semester. The Masters was only 14 units long. Pathetic really in comparison, but out in the workforce who cares, all the big boss' want to know is that you have a Masters in Engineering and you are way better than some poor plonker who slaved his guts out getting a boring BEng.


Other alternatives might be ADFA, if he enjoys the outdoors. fantastic for the domestic of things. Mothers like nothing better than their sons coming home and being able to iron their clothes better than them. I think the normal payback time applies. The 3 year degrees of BA and BSc require 4 years of post grad service, so 7 all up. The 4 yr BEng requires 5 years of post grad service, so 9 all up.....daunting for a young kid, you get less for murder nowadays.


Nothing however, speaks louder than money to young kids. You can phaff about with all of the career nonsense and "opportunities".....these guys are sharp as a tack and all they wanna see is the big cash. I used to be part of a lecture circuit going around to Yr 10 kids and giving them a taste of our industry. There used to be 4 of us, a Geo, a Reservoir Eng, me doing the Drilling Eng, followed by the Production Eng.


I used to get feedback from the teacher, that the class were nearly put to sleep by the first two guys, as they banged on about the technical aspects of their job. I decided to wake the kids up by putting the pay scales on the board of what the boys out on the rigs were on. That woke 'em up !!! After that, they actually stopped mucking around and paid attention.....a rare event the teachers used to tell me. That was 10 years ago now....dunno how many took it up, but I do know 3 teachers who quit their jobs and went roughnecking instead for double the pay, so at least some good come from it I suppose.


In the end though WW, what you know about investing is far more important than any career. All of my mates who did engineering are still bashing their heads against the work brick wall and will be for another 3 decades yet. Teach him what you know now....if he'll let you, and he'll be set for life.


Cheers and good luck.

 

[WinstonWolfe]

brrmm, fudge, dazz.....brilliant info....Have shown TBH this morning and discussing with Ch (2nd son) over breaky. TBH says a big thanks to all of you. She is amazed how helpful people are on a forum who have never met.

Brrmm, Ch mentioned over a bowl of cereal he has been exploring the environmental engineering degree. He's attracted because it appears to relate more directly to geography. When I first heard about it a year ago, I thought it was some soft greenie option they did at more left wing universities, and wouldn't be taken seriously in the mining sector. Anyway, I'll drop the bias and have a straighter look into it.

Fudge and VB, I am fond of QUT. I started a business degree there in the 70s part time. The lecturers all had 20+ years of real world marketing business experience, and were passionate and appreciated same in students. I later studied at UQ and found it quite different (but different disciplines). Nevertheless, will keep an open mind on all.

Dazz, my bias would be to throw Ch into the real world way of doing it. We hadn't considered Kalgoorlie School of Mining. Will explore that. I agree the value of earning good coin when studying would allow Ch to bring forward investing options......it's tough trying to raise a deposit when property values move quicker than you can save.

Doubt we'll go the ADF route though it would be great for many. I'd prefer Ch immerse himself with highly motivated sharp street smart lads, a mixture of laborers and professionals, the sort he could form trusting life long bonds with and have as venture business partners in the future. I'd like him thinking the world is his oyster and be prepared to bite off heaps and take calculated smart risk......get in as an investment partner on a solid mining lease down the track, throw in fluency in Mandarin and an MBA, and he could have some real fun. Anyway, first things first

Thanks again all. We're printing out this stuff for Ch and his like minded mate.