Help! Advice needed regarding eviction and rental arrears

[skater]

Petal, I totally agree with your assessment of contributions that come from Dazz. I don't get why he has to continually belittle us Resi folk.

Can I please just restate my one question, that is if you get a court order demanding repayment of any money, how the heck it is enforced? Do you then have to go and see debt collectors or something? If so has anyone had any experience with them? Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I have NEVER had any money paid back from a Court Order. It only ends up costing you more & more money to try to re-coup anything.You don't stand a chance on this one, as I feel these guys have been there, done that, and are lifelong freeloaders.
Also, can anyone tell me whether there is an alternative to giving tenants your residental street address. FRom what I've tried to read from all over the place we HAVE to and can't give a P.O. box address. (I just feel so vulnerable). What about if you use a PM (which we haven't), can they just put their P.O. Box? What does it take to register/train as a PM so that I can just put my P.O. Box on paperwork instead of my actual house.

None of my tenants have my residential address. That could be because I'm from another State, so I really can't comment on the situation in WA.

I know that PM fees in WA are excessive, but I really feel that you should, in future, use a PM. Make sure they are tough on tenants and prompt at serving the notices. You mentioned that you sent notices out that weren't relevant in your State. This is a huge mistake, as this has only allowed your lovely tenants to prolong their stay.

Unfortunately, it seems that you have learnt a very costly lesson in investing. There are some successful investors who don't use a PM, however you will find that they are in the minority, or have been in this game a long time and have a lot of experience.

Like some of the others said, document everything and take photo's. I know of one tribunal, in a regional NSW area, where they are very lenient towards bad tenants, and I know that photographic evidence works wonders.

Where to go from here? You need to get them out. It is unlikely that a PM will take on these bad tenants for you, so it is up to you. Serve the notices as soon as you are able to, take as many photo's as you can, speak to the neighbours and see if they will back you up for the Strata issues.

Following the legal way to get rid of them takes time, however if they have been there for over 5 months, they should already have been shifted out by the Sheriff. Get on top of things and don't let it slide for a moment. If you have started the correct process for your state, you will get them out.

When you have the property back, be prepared for damages and a nasty clean up. I don't know why, but it seems that almost all non payers leave behind enough rubbish to fill several skips.

As far as the finances are concerned, you are going to have to do some hard budgeting to get you through this. Be prepared and hold on tight, because you will get through this. BTW, there is another thread on the site called "How broke have you been?" you might want to read up on how some forumites have had to survive in harsh times. Keep the focus and remember that this is short term. Once you have the property back and in a rentable condition, things will start to look good once again.



.

 

[The Y-man]

Can I please just restate my one question, that is if you get a court order demanding repayment of any money, how the heck it is enforced? Do you then have to go and see debt collectors or something? If so has anyone had any experience with them?

I am not sure you will see much money back unfortunatley - the "best" outcome at this stage I think would probably be an eviciton carried out by the sherrif's office (stuff dumped on street, locks changed), unless they leave of their own volition.

Also, can anyone tell me whether there is an alternative to giving tenants your residental street address. FRom what I've tried to read from all over the place we HAVE to and can't give a P.O. box address. (I just feel so vulnerable). What about if you use a PM (which we haven't), can they just put their P.O. Box? What does it take to register/train as a PM so that I can just put my P.O. Box on paperwork instead of my actual house.


Diane

If you use a PM, the PM's address goes on the lease form. The tenants never find out where you live etc. All dealings are through the PM.


Cheers,

The Y-man

 

[The Y-man]

Y-man - what an awesome idea - thinking outside the box.

I was just thinking back to something someone said at one of the MIG's many moons ago - about leaving a car carcass and a rusty engine or 2 lying around on common ground of a development when it goes to aucion...

Cheers,

The Y-man

 

[jackson]

Hi lifelonglearner,

sorry to hear about your situation.
hopefully things will work out better for ya.
anyway i thought ill contribute and try and answer your questions.

Ok, my pertinent questions:
What does an eviction order from the court mean and how long might it really take to get him out?
How does he get ‘kicked’ out?
When is it best to have tried to get unpaid rent through the courts?
If I get a court order for unpaid rent, what can I do with it?
Is Landlords Insurance any help if a dispute is already going on?
What else can we/should we have done in this situation?

An eviction order simply means that the tenant must evict from the premises. For the tenant to leave the premises depends on what the order states. If the order states that the tenant is to give up the premises on the 5th June 2009. Technically he has to midnight to remove himself from the premises. If he choose to not to vacate the premises, you will then fill out a Form 6 (application or request to the court) and tick Property seizure and delivery order and this will simply means that you have elect the bailiff to go over to your rental premises and remove the tenant from the premises. (this will cost about 480-550) just depending on traveling.

Once the tenant has evict from the premises you can then make an application (form 12) and recover damages, outstanding rent etc.

Once the court makes an order for the applicant to recover outstanding rents, damages etc from the respondent you can then enforce it by filling out the Form 6 (application or request to the court) again and this time you tick either Means Inquiry or Property Seizure and Sale order.
Means Inquiry simply means that you have to serve the summons personally to the respondent to get him to come to court and try to make an arrangement for an installment order. So this simply means that he may pay 5, 10, 20, 50 dollars a week, depending on his income and expenses. (please note the registrar can make an order that no means is to be pay as he may not have enough income to cover for his everyday expenses)
Property siezure and sale order is when the bailiff will go over to the tenants place of residence and seize any goods and will try and auction off the goods seized. (please note again bailiff may state that there is no goods to seize)
so these two options is pretty much up to you to decide if you know the tenant is working and he has income or goods to seize or you know his not working and don't have any goods to seize then its not worth the hassle. Bear in mind that the onus is on you to supply to the court the tenant forwarding address.

Can I please just restate my one question, that is if you get a court order demanding repayment of any money, how the heck it is enforced? Do you then have to go and see debt collectors or something? If so has anyone had any experience with them?

Also, can anyone tell me whether there is an alternative to giving tenants your residental street address. FRom what I've tried to read from all over the place we HAVE to and can't give a P.O. box address. (I just feel so vulnerable). What about if you use a PM (which we haven't), can they just put their P.O. Box? What does it take to register/train as a PM so that I can just put my P.O. Box on paperwork instead of my actual house.

Y-man - what an awesome idea - thinking outside the box.

Diane

When enforcing it you dont need to have a debt collector to recover the money for you. You can simply fill out the form 6 as mention above and recover the money yourself.
When lodging a form under the residential tenancy act you may supply your po box address. However when you come to enforcing it you can no longer supply po box address as there is no provision under the civil judgment enforcement act. This rules apply to individual, real estate and even lawyers.
I suggest maybe you can supply your work address, friends address or parents address etc.

Anyway hope this helps you and good luck with what you do.

Regards

 

[lifelonglearner]

Thank-you SO much Jackson, that is a wealth of helpful information. One last question though.

On the tenancy agreement are you able to just put a P.O. Box address?

Thank-you for opening my eyes to the process a little. How did you learn this? Am I missing some documentation I am supposed to read or is this your experience?

Diane.

 

[jackson]

Thank-you SO much Jackson, that is a wealth of helpful information. One last question though.

On the tenancy agreement are you able to just put a P.O. Box address?

Thank-you for opening my eyes to the process a little. How did you learn this? Am I missing some documentation I am supposed to read or is this your experience?

Diane.

No problem.

In regards to the tenancy agreement, i am not able to help you as I have not experience this myself.

I actually work for the magistrates court and deal with this on a daily basis.

Anyway if you have more questions in regards to proceedings ask away and will try my best to assist you.

Regards

 

[handyandy]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I have NEVER had any money paid back from a Court Order. It only ends up costing you more & more money to try to re-coup anything.You don't stand a chance on this one, as I feel these guys have been there, done that, and are lifelong freeloaders.

.

Slightly off topic.

I am about to try and get about $1k where we do have a tribunal order for outstanding monies. The only reason that I think we will succeed this time is that we have the mum pf the ex tenant as co tenant. One problem is that I seem to be battling a reluctant PM (this PM manages most of my properties)

This was originally a high risk tenant (proved to be correct) and the only way she was going to get the property was by having it co signed.

Originally the PM agreed (actually promoted the tenant on this basis) and this worked out fine in dealing with slow and late rental payment whilst in residence. Obviously the tenant wore the PM down as he became less affective as time went on. Eventually, we evicted her based on more late rent (can't remember the specifics - water under the bridge) which was back in Oct 09.

The PM followed procedures to end up with tribunal order for moneys owed (for damages) and the PM has tried to collect against order but ineffectively. I say ineffectively as I recently found out he was just hassling the actual tenant rather than the mum. I suspect that he avoided ringing the mum as in the past the tenant has verbally attacked him for ringing the mum yet this had produced results.

Anyway, as this has now dragged on way to long I went down to the REA's office and sat down with PM and made him call the mum and outline that if no money by 5pm this Friday we will seek legal recourse to recover the debt. I was actually prepared to make this call from the RE office just to show how to do it. Mum acted like she knew nothing so I questioned PM as why this was. He showed me letters which were sent to both but the daughter just lives down the road and may have intercepted the mail (will give benefit of doubt) She reacted positively (in that concerned parent I am on the lease way ) and I do expect that we will receive the money.

As a side issue what I immediately noticed reading the letter of demand is that the PM had used my full name in the letter of demand wtf - this is why I have a PM to remain anonymous and not have my name plastered all over the place. Luckily we have a silent number so obtaining an residential address is not straight forward. But it is certainly something that I will need to come back to ones we have resolved the outstanding money issue.

In the discussions with the PM I attempted to discuss better procedures in future for these sort of situations as obviously he can't handle this extent of confrontation. He came back with the LL insurance line because obviously this is an easy way out for PM's at no cost to them. Bottom line is we don't have LL insurance as it would cost $15k+ pa to have it covering all properties and for the amount of issues that we have arise the $15k in my pocket will easily cover any event.

I was very surprised with the PM's reaction as I have now been with him for well over 6 years but there are obvious signs that he is very overworked and business is not going to well. I will persevere but will need to pay more attention to any issues as they happen.

So, I will see on Friday whether this has been resolved or whether we need to go the way of a magistrates order for collection of debt. Kudos to you Jackson

Cheers

 

[skater]

Good luck Handyandy. Let us know how you go.

 

[Perp]

Can I please just restate my one question, that is if you get a court order demanding repayment of any money, how the heck it is enforced?

For skater and others experienced in such matters: can't you go to the employer/Centrelink with your court order, and get the employer/Centrelink to deduct it from their payments?

(Waiting to be laughed at for my naive assumption that when you're in the right, the system will back you up. )

 

[Collector]

As a side issue what I immediately noticed reading the letter of demand is that the PM had used my full name in the letter of demand wtf - this is why I have a PM to remain anonymous and not have my name plastered all over the place. Luckily we have a silent number so obtaining an residential address is not straight forward. But it is certainly something that I will need to come back to ones we have resolved the outstanding money issue.

Cheers

Handyandy,

Your tenant already had your full name

Your details (name) MUST be on the residential tenancy agreement they entered into.

 

[skater]

For skater and others experienced in such matters: can't you go to the employer/Centrelink with your court order, and get the employer/Centrelink to deduct it from their payments?

(Waiting to be laughed at for my naive assumption that when you're in the right, the system will back you up. )

LOL! I wish!! It is a joke.

The system is supposed to back you up. You can get the wages garnisheed, but you have to know where they work, and the last time I had anything to do with that was a long time ago.

In a previous life, I worked for a debt collector. It was a long time ago and only for a short time, so maybe things are a little different now (I hope). During this time, we were self employed and tried to use the legal method of getting the debt paid by a debtor of ours, and I still lost more money than the debt was worth, despite not being charged for any services that the debt collection agency employed.

I can't remember how many times we had to lodge papers through the courts (each time costing money to be added to the debt). Each time the debtor did not pay. Eventually I was granted an order for the Sheriff to seize their assets, so they could be sold to pay for the outstanding money (remember, as this was a Business debt, it was another Business that I was chasing and they hadn't gone out of Business). When the Sheriff arrived, it was determined that the Proprietors owned nothing, despite there being a ton of stuff there. It was all either rented, or owned by his mother.

The next step was to try to get it taken out of their earnings, however the Business was running at a loss and I was told to cut my losses, because I could not get blood out of a stone. If they have no income, despite good intentions, they just could not pay the debt. Good intentions, my fat a$%$.

On several other times during my time with the Collection Agency, I would have to go out to visit their debtors and try to work out a budget whereby they could afford to pay their debts, this was in relationship to garnishee orders. However, if they are on Centrelink they can use the line "I just can't afford it" and the Courts will be lenient on them because they earn supposedly below the poverty line. If you are lucky, you might get a ruling that they can pay $5 or $10 per week. The budget merely involved me writing down their income and expenses, and anything they had left over could go towards paying down the debt. It is really easy for them to just add extra's onto their expenses and this was never verified.

For instance, one customer I remember to this day, although I don't remember the exact $$ involved, I do remember the scenario. Single Mum with a toddler and a new born, sole income Centrelink. She owed a large sum of money to an insurance company for a car accident that she was at fault. She was uninsured, so they came after her. I remember the amount of money that she told me she spent on food each week was more than I spent at the time. Considerably more! Yet my children were a little older (so ate more - AND one of hers was breast fed) and we had an additional person to feed. Then there was a very large amount of $$ for Herbalife, as she needed to lose weight. There was also a large amount of money being spent on disposable nappies.

By this time I was a little sick of the "little darlings" getting away with not paying for anything. I suggested that she use cloth nappies. Well, how dare I question her decision to use disposable. She has much better things to do than wash nappies (I can't for the life of me figure out what, cause she was a lazy slob). The next thing I mentioned was that she could put the $$ she was spending on Herbalife towards her debt, and just eat less. OMG, did I get abuse from her over that one. How dare I tell her she doesn't have the right to lose weight?? I got a rap over the knuckles for that one too, because I was not to stand in judgement over what they do with their money, just to see how much over they had each payment.

 

[wylie]

The next thing I mentioned was that she could put the $$ she was spending on Herbalife towards her debt, and just eat less. OMG, did I get abuse from her over that one.

LOL Skater. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall when this conversation was taking place .

 

[Perp]

However, if they are on Centrelink they can use the line "I just can't afford it" and the Courts will be lenient on them because they earn supposedly below the poverty line. If you are lucky, you might get a ruling that they can pay $5 or $10 per week. The budget merely involved me writing down their income and expenses, and anything they had left over could go towards paying down the debt. It is really easy for them to just add extra's onto their expenses and this was never verified.

Why am I horrified and peeved but not surprised?

Why do Courts have such a perverse view of the world, where they seem to think that debts only have to be repaid if it causes the debtor no hardship? If we landlords / business owners / working people have a debt, we don't seem to be able to avail ourselves of the same arguments with our creditors. We - along with all the other landlords / business owners / working people - have found ourselves cutting back at various times in order to meet our commitments; it's just what you have to do when you owe money.

*Sigh* Obviously I'm being terribly old-fashioned...

 

[skater]

Why am I horrified and peeved but not surprised?

Why do Courts have such a perverse view of the world, where they seem to think that debts only have to be repaid if it causes the debtor no hardship? If we landlords / business owners / working people have a debt, we don't seem to be able to avail ourselves of the same arguments with our creditors. We - along with all the other landlords / business owners / working people - have found ourselves cutting back at various times in order to meet our commitments; it's just what you have to do when you owe money.

*Sigh* Obviously I'm being terribly old-fashioned...

I know! I am sooooo very sick of the "cost of doing business" in many ways. OK, you go into things (Business/Investments etc)and there ARE costs involved. You accept that, even expect that. But once you get started, you find out along the way that the "costs" are a LOT more than you bargained on, simply because of the whole way the legal system works. The "rich" Business Owner/Landlord has little rights, while the "poor" individual (the ones that take advantage & use the system), have many rights.

If you want to get ahead, well, you just plough onwards, but it doesn't mean you have to like it.

Here is another example of "How to take advantage of the Small Business Owner". We used to have a Business that sold Promotional Products. Our customers were mainly other Businesses, purchasing bulk items as giveaways etc. Anyway, we get a large order for TShirts from a local car owners club. It was a substantial order & I had to order the shirts in especially for them, using one of the larger suppliers. They were the same as all the other promotional ones you see around, 100% cotton. If you go to some of the junk stores you can sometimes get them for $5-6 retail, which isn't much more than the wholesale cost.

We got them printed, delivered and paid for. It was around $1500 all up, which was a lot of money at the time. All is fine until about a month later, when we get a call from them, demanding their money back. Why?? There was nothing wrong & the shirts were good quality, what was wrong? I can't remember the exact details, but from memory, one of the members had somehow either shrunk their shirt and it was a little misshapen. Probably washed it the wrong way & stuck it in the dryer.

Cutting a long story short, they end up taking us to Dept of Fair Trading, because we refused to refund for something that we were not at fault for because they had not followed washing instructions. Ruling eventually came in that we had to refund them the entire amount (remember, only one shirt had a problem and they had all been wearing them for a while by now) AND they got to keep the shirts.

When we asked "Where do we stand?" we were basically told that Fair Trading are there to protect the consumer from unscrupulous Business Owners (us??). We don't have any rights and we cannot pursue our supplier of the shirts as we were a Business. This would have to be done via the legal system, and would probably cost a lot. Of course, we would have to prove that the shirts were faulty (they weren't), but our customer, not being a business, rather a co-op of individuals didn't have to prove a thing and got a large amount of TShirts, complete with their logo, for free.

 

[Dazz]

LOL! I wish!! It is a joke.

The system is supposed to back you up.

That's funny - I call it a joke and everyone jumps up and down disagreeing with me. You call it a joke and everyone agrees with you ??


Obviously we all have a different definition of "it".

 

[Norwester]

Hi Diane,

Crikey, wouldn't it be easier just to kneecap some of these people??......

I'm sure that even in humble old WA there must be a local chapter of the Painters & Dockers.......

Hope it all works out.

ciao

Nor

 

[wylie]

That's funny - I call it a joke and everyone jumps up and down disagreeing with me. You call it a joke and everyone agrees with you ??


Obviously we all have a different definition of "it".

The difference is in the delivery........

Skater is being supportive and trying to help. You tend to drip with sarcasm, make the person asking the question out to be some type of drip for even considering dealing with ressy tenants and really are not much help at all.

Genuine, helpful answers from you would be as welcomed as they are from Skater. Why not give it a try.

 

[Dazz]

The difference is in the delivery........Why not give it a try.

For one very simple reason wylie. Delivery means not a jot to me. I try to only deal in contracts, law, facts and end results. The delivery and feel good tone is quite irrelevant to me, and more importantly, as lifelonglearner and others are finding out, being reasonable and kind and tolerant of ratbags like she is trying to evict gets you nowhere.


But, alas, both yourself, skater and I know the end result, and most others now are aware, and it is the same. There is no need to state the obvious.


The major difference of course is, instead of asking or indeed answering questions regarding the dreadful and stressful and costly subject......where the end of line seems to be "the law is an @$$", which is of no comfort whatsoever IMO, I have actively changed tack in my business model to positively avoid such a disaster and have nothing to do with these frustrating and toothless laws, and even moreso the ineptitude and reluctance of the magistrates, who then onpass that indifference to the physical enforcers who drag their feet as well.


No matter which way you dress it up, none of that very important subject material has anything to do with my "delivery".


Good day madam.

 

[wylie]

I seem to remember some of your commercial people threatening the safety of your wife and family. I seem to remember plenty of horror stories with your commercial stuff.

Actually, I totally disagree with your comments. The question was asked in good faith, from someone with a problem.

Fat lot of help you were. At least some of us tried to help the person asking the question.

Let's hope you never need to ask for help, and have to put up with some tosser looking down his nose at you and making you out to be a fool for even considering to enter into whatever it is that is causing you grief.

Good evening sir. (And I use that term very loosely.)

 

[Petal]

The difference is in the delivery........

Skater is being supportive and trying to help. You tend to drip with sarcasm, make the person asking the question out to be some type of drip for even considering dealing with ressy tenants and really are not much help at all.

Genuine, helpful answers from you would be as welcomed as they are from Skater. Why not give it a try.

Yeah yeah I'll wade in here too seeing as how I took a pot shot recently. I fully agree with what Wylie say's which probably will come as no surprise Dazz

Just face it Dazz you probably are a pretty nice bloke and I know you have been invaluable here on the forum to a lot of people who like to hear and learn from your stories, but what was getting up some of our noses was the "aren't I the clever one" attitude. Maybe that is not what you intended to mean but sorry to say that is the way it comes accross. If that does not matter to you, well you keeping on doing what you do and we'll keep on doing what we do and never the twain shall many of our views meet.