Freeman Fox - Wealth Club

Hi Bill. Thanks for the accolades, although I'm not sure I explained my message well.
I don't go to seminars because "Its so easy" (I guess compared to reading books).
I go because that's how I learn best. To absorb technical data I need to read it over and over. However, when someones shows me/explains to me .."well, this is how it works"..it just locks in to my brain easier. I need to "experience" it.

Do I just rely on seminars...no way. If something doesn't sound/look correct, I try other methods of verifying it...and sometimes this means reading technical books/manuals.

Fortunately, I have some training in teaching/presentations, so I know about learning styles.......and therefore appreciate that just reading a book wont do it for me.

A wise friend of mine once told me "Garry, you can read as many books about having an orgasm as you like, but until you actually have one, you've got no idea." :p


GarryK
 
Garry,
That monicker? of yours below your signature, sums up my point pretty well.

"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" :Daniel Boorstin"

bye
 
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Books?

Hi all - Great Thread,

I am of the opinion that just reading a book is one of the least efficient ways of obtaining knowledge... The mind works best with pictures 'the minds eye', if we can visualise what is being said then it is just easier to understand.

You have to visualise what you are reading to understand it. Maybe just sitting there, staying out the window while the brain struggles with the concepts and tricks of trusts for example... You can't just read a book and then fully understand it... Well least for me I have to go back and THINK/visualise what is being said.

Maybe some here have been 'burned' by a dodgy seminar... I don't think anyone can say that ALL seminars are rely on brainwashing and/or are just out to sell something... There are some really good seminars out there that are packed full of information and to just ignore them because 'they are all dodgy and just want to sell something with their brainwashing' is to ignore an excellent source of information and knowledge!

Of course you can get all the information contained in seminars from books or talking to 'educated' investors.... But if you had no intention to invest in the first place or don’t know the questions to ask, then these seminars GET YOUR MIND THINKING... I have, and will in the future go to seminars (after research & due Diligence of course – sound familiar?) some people just don’t have the spare time to read all the investment books in Dymocks…. Can you really call this ‘taking the easy road??” I say it is the efficient road. I don’t try and read all the tax law, I have an accountant that has read all that (I hope ;-) ) and he ‘sells’ me something, his services! (and sometimes ‘Trusts’)

For the record: I went to a Spann Seminar in Dec 2000 as well… Certainly was the fork in the road which has gotten me here!! And I can honestly say it was the best thing for me personally at that time - high income & no idea. I actually showed some of the information to my family (not interested in Property) and their ‘light went on!’ They actually own more property then me now)
I have also been to the David Novac seminar on options – Excellent if you want a concise education on how to use them – Good starting point to continue my education.


• Let the people who believe in books – READ BOOKS

• Let the people who are 'open' to seminars – READ BOOKS & GO TO SEMINARS! :D

Whatever works for you...


DaveJ

(PS. Again to not be mistaken… There are some really dodgy seminars around with the sole purpose of getting your hard-earned money. But there are some that are very worthwhile, try it sometime – even the free ones are worth it) Just research and do some due diligence before you swap the card.
 
Um? (another long post)

Before I start - again, thank you so much for the positive feedback so many people have given me and my company in here. :D :) :D :cool: :D

Having said that - here goes...

I am not sure how much more than...

"There is nothing in this seminar that you don’t already know or couldn’t learn yourself for very little"
and
"the only reason we do this is to get you as a client"
and
"if you were expecting something else I'm happy to give you a refund"

... that I could say without totally back-selling our company and the reason why people attended in the first place - to learn. To me these type of statements reasonably address the type of concerns that many people (including Bill) raise, most of which, I agree are valid, but some are just over the top.

How could I make it any more reasonable?

I have even written 3 books (2 more to be published) so people could get my strategies without having to fork over lots of money and by the time I am done those books will probably contain more "content" then my seminars.

I am up for genuine suggestions because we have tried really hard to address the concerns of potential clients, regulators and consumer advocates while still maintaining a commercial approach to business.

And remember, regardless of what you think about seminars, financial planning, stock brokers, real estate agents and the rest of what we do, they are all legitimate businesses which we, as investors, often have to deal with.

AND in all of these business areas we have to compete with people who are not held to the same standards that we are due to our Financial Services License, Participating Organisation of the Australian Stock Exchange status, Real Estate Licenses and the Association Memberships we are governed by.

Freeman Fox is here for the long haul and have a commitment to being the best we can with the resources we have. We have hundreds of shareholders, managers and directors who are leaders in their fields and manage and advise on hundreds of millions (over $300 million at last count) of our clients’ money.

While we can't please everyone and some of the suggestions I have received on this topic are extreme and totally uncommercial we want to please as many people as we can.

I genuinely believe that the vast majority of our clients like us, like what we do and believe we deliver value for money. We make mistakes, but I challenge anybody to find anybody who doesn’t. We give refunds and we get the odd complaint (for which, by the way we have a Complaints Register to track any trends, and are paid members of a Dispute Resolution Service just in case people don’t think we have given them a fair hearing in their complaint).

I was trying to think of an analogy (you would know by now that I like stories) so I liken it to flying (a topic dear to my heart being a Platinum Frequent Flyer)...

I fly First Class everywhere. I am happy to pay.

Some people would think that is a total absolute waste of money and that everybody in the pointy end are w#%kers.

Some people just can’t afford it and booked 6 months in advance to get the cheapest fair they could.

Some people are at the back of the bus doing everything they can in their life to get to the front.

And before anybody starts I HAVE flown economy – just yesterday I had to voluntary downgrade to get a seat on the only flight to my destination (Oh, boo hoo I hear you all saying! ;) ). And OK, it wasn’t that bad but it wasn’t good enough that you won’t find me back up the front next time.

And I am not going to feel sorry for anybody down the back and offer to give up my seat to them. And I don’t resent paying $15,000 when other people have paid $800 to be on the same plane as long as the airline delivers on their promise of First Class service.

But here’s the thing… We ALL get to the same place and get to enjoy the wonder of travel.

My point - It doesn't matter how we get to wealth as long as we get there. If I want to do to seminars, or go to a financial planner or sell through auction or even if I want to give it a go, why attack me?

I don't expect the economy passengers to abuse me as I get off the plane.

(And if one more person does the "even if they only charge $200 and get 100 people in the room they have made $20,000" thing I will send the boys around (and I know some boys :D). I can't speak for anybody else but it costs us over $100,000 to put on a seminar of the type we usually do. If we only got 100 people at $200 each we would go out of business real fast.)

I'm not sure why this criticism bothers me so much – I have been coming into this forum for a couple of years just to see what people were saying and never commented on this topic before (apart from when GeoffW said I used an old photo ‘cuase I looked thinner – :p ).

I usually have a pretty thick skin and I have never thought to bother to defend myself on this issue before and certainly NEVER have defended the “wealth seminar industry” before or now – I am specifically referring to me and my company but becuase of everything we have done, I now think this goes beyond a criticism of me. It is an attack (intended or not) on my company, my shareholders, my clients and my team. If I do not defend our position then I feel I would be negligent to them as it erodes our reputation, brand and the efforts we have made to build a strong and trustworthy business.

I just think we here at Freeman Fox have done so much, spent so much, trained so much, employed so many qualified and wonderful people, changed so much, worked so hard, and so on to address these types of issues that I wonder if anybody will ever just say, "hey, good on you. Good to see at least somebody is prepared to have a go at getting it right."

If people want to open a debate on strategy I say bring it on. Isn't that why you are here - to learn from various sources (for free) what works for them and may work for you?

Since I have been here this round it I have witnessed extraordinary knowledge from the “everyday” (whatever that means) successful contributors in here so you don't have to hear from me droning on, even on my own strategies. I have already said my philosophy is “there are many ways to skin a cat”, and many successful ways to wealth I don't do - this (my strategies) just works for me.

But, at least on this topic, and for my company I have to be prepared to stand up and be proud of what we have done, what we have achieved and what we are still going to do to get even better.
 
Hi all,

Yes Peter, you should be congratulated for putting your thoughts out in a book(or books). There are many others in your profession who claim that the only way to get their "secrets" is to go along to the seminar.

This is very noble of you to say in your seminars......
"There is nothing in this seminar that you don’t already know or couldn’t learn yourself for very little"
and
"the only reason we do this is to get you as a client"
and
"if you were expecting something else I'm happy to give you a refund"

Apart from the refund bit, I don't notice the other 2 in your advertising brochure. Why do you wait until people are in the door to tell them??

By the way, with the.....
"I usually have a pretty thick skin and I have never thought to bother to defend myself on this issue before and certainly NEVER have defended the “wealth seminar industry” before or now – I am specifically referring to me and my company but becuase of everything we have done, I now think this goes beyond a criticism of me. It is an attack (intended or not) on my company, my shareholders, my clients and my team. If I do not defend our position then I feel I would be negligent to them as it erodes our reputation, brand and the efforts we have made to build a strong and trustworthy business.

I just think we here at Freeman Fox have done so much, spent so much, trained so much, employed so many qualified and wonderful people, changed so much, worked so hard, and so on to address these types of issues that I wonder if anybody will ever just say, "hey, good on you. Good to see at least somebody is prepared to have a go at getting it right."

I think you will find that everyone who has posted except me has congratulated you.

As I am the person posting "the negatives" of the wealth seminar industry, I can assure you that I am not alone in my concerns. My opinion still remains that I feel it is wrong to charge people to come along to what is effectively advertising ie "the only reason we do this is to get you as a client", yet your brochure claims something along the lines of...

"At $298 for 21 hours of hard core wealth education"

I wonder if any of this has helped Kamar at all?

bye
 
Peter Spann said:
I'm not sure why this criticism bothers me so much – I have been coming into this forum for a couple of years just to see what people were saying and never commented on this topic before (apart from when GeoffW said I used an old photo ‘cuase I looked thinner – :p ).

(LOL about the photo!) I suggest that it bothers you because you're forgetting that you are powerless to change some people's perceptions. It doesn't matter what empirical evidence you provide, how hard the people you care about work, and how much of your heart and soul you pour into something like Freeman Fox.

Psychics say that, "To those who believe no proof is necessary and to those who don't no proof is enough" (or words to that effect). Perhaps an unwise analogy (!) but it makes my point. BillL obviously has an opinion about marketing, advertising and the seminar industry that nothing that anyone else says is going to change. Similarly, nothing he says can negate the benefits that I believe I received from wealth creation seminars. I am just as stubborn in my assertion that I am right. :p

What I got from the Freeman Fox seminars was about 5% advertising and the rest evenly split between education & mind-set. I assert that latter is 90% responsible for success in investing. If the info is so freely available in so many books, why aren't the millions of readers already rich?

As for "advertising," I don't really care about the motivation of the presenter as long as I get value from them. That said, I have noticed that even the most cynical folk seem to develop an affection for you, Peter, after sitting in one of your seminars. No one can convince me that you don't genuinely love what you do and love passing on what you know in order to lift others up. In fact, even if you said that you don't I wouldn't believe you. It's obvious that's what keeps you going in the face of constant negativity. I actually feel a bit sad that people don't believe that is possible in a seminar presenter...

Hey! I inadvertantly just convinced myself to go to the Instant Income seminar this month. LOL :)

P.S. Crikey! I didn't mean to write this rambling stream of consciousness.These kind of fora are very dangerous when you're as self-indulgent as me. :rolleyes:
 
And who would have thought such a simple question which started all this off would have resulted in this thread.
 
Ding Ding

OK - back to your corners everybody.

No need to get personal.

Thanks for your support but we are all entitled to our views. I just prefer to be as positive as possible in my life without being a total Pollyanna either.

To clarify - I am happy to take constructive criticism – it has led to a lot of improvement in the way we do business.

Like everybody I just like a pat on the back every now and again when we do something in the right direction.
 
Back on track

Can we get this thread back on track please ?

If someone has a problem with the moderation on the forum, take it up with the moderators, or in a separate thread. Don't spoil the content of this thread.

... now back to our regular programming...
 
Hi again,

Just one last thing to add to the debate "books vs seminars"(if thats what we are having) and that is, ..

On Peter's advertising he mentions that his education in the field of investing involved reading over 347 books and attending over 50 seminars. I think that should help those who want to be successful.

bye
 
Good point Bill

I feel both seminars and books can be extremely important. I read far more books than attend seminars. I don't knock books- but I got my big kick from a Spann seminar, and then started reading.

After some successes I've felt it worth while to invest a little of my success $ into seminars as well.

Peter mentioned once that, at one stage, he was a seminar junkie- and he kept meeting many of the same people.

But I've heard that he has been sighted at a number of recent seminars- busily taking notes. Maybe for checking out the competition- but I suspect that, if that was the only reason, he'd be sending a staff member along to take some very good notes.

I learn something new all the time.

For instance, I was at a recent seminar, where the material on commercial real estate was the best material I've heard or read on the subject. And that was just in the first two hours of a long weekend seminar.

I have received some excellent ideas from some books recently as well.

I'm taking all those ideas on board- but then, I'm heading down a road which is not one covered by books or seminars- a road which was actually suggested by by children.

So I'm trying to learn the best I can from whatever path I can, and I try to keep an open mind to whatever opportunities come.

(Though, I must admit, my open mind does NOT extend to people who call me at work asking me how my investment strategies are working :D )
 
books or wealth club or seminars

Hi all,

I'm not sure where the thread has drifted off to, but I'll throw in my two newbie cents about books and seminars.

When I knew nothing about money, I used to read books about wealth and business and motivational stuff like crazy...and nothing happened. Then I went to one seminar on wealth creation and I got motivated...and nothing happened. Then i went to a couple of other seminars on wealth creation in a multi-level marketing firm...bought some products...sold some products...but nothing really happened. I read books and tried to make money in the stock market. I lost about $20,000 and gave up. Then someone told my wife and I about a Peter Spann seminar and gave us the video of the 3 hour evening session and lights flashed in my mind. We went to the Wealth Magic seminar. I got motivated and then scared out of my pants about buying property. If it wasn't for my wife, who had helped her mom gut and renovate a small 1 bedroom house when she was 10 years old and knew heaps about houses, I would never have pulled the trigger on property. And now we have two IPs and want to buy more. I now understand alot more about wealth, but mostly about the importance of strategies, of being cool, of not being emotional.

A good seminar presenter will simplify the hard stuff and make it easy to apply. But someone has got to be there to hand hold you through that first big purchase. If you can get enough of a push from a seminar presenter, then good on ya. Books and seminars weren't enough, but whatever was needed to get me kickstarted, that's great. I'm glad it was there. (If it's my partner, is a double bonus)

After that, you have to learn enough about your own motivation buttons to get whatever you need to stay on track. Book? Seminar? Chats with smart people on forums? Wealth club? Whatever gets you moving and up to the "next level", whatever that may be. I reckon that's the most important thing.

Jireh
 
Thanks Jireh, a very worth while comment.

Seminars don't work for some- that's obvious.

And books don't work for some,

Even a fantastic resource like this forum doesn't work for many.

The scepticism of some presenters is well founded. There are many who have been stung.

For me, Peter spelt out the fundamentals and made it easy to apply.

And yes, he sold other things which did not work for me. Stock tracking programs and the like.

But I learnt a huge amount of the fundamentals fro Peter.

And he gave me the confidence t get out there and try it. I would have not been able to do that from any book.

That's me, and that's my learning level and experience.
 
To Peter
l have just finished you new book.
well done
It has clarified many things for me on my investing journey.
Opened my mind to other avenues on my investing journey.
Given me a new list of questions on my investing journey.
A new list for my accountant and money man on my investing journey.
It gave me a few laughs which we often need on our investing journey.
It has given me inspiration to continue whole hearted on my investing journey.
THANKYOU THANKYOU you have helped this little investor.
Enjoy life Peter
cheers yadreamin
ps a big pat on the back for you
 
Hi All

Having read through the posts that have been made here both positive and negative, I cant help but post my view on this particular topic.

If you work as a lawyer, would you expect that his/her services would be for free?

If you work as an engineer, would you expect that his/her services would be for free?

I work as an accountant for a large global services firm and our clients pay generally by the hour for access to the information and resources that we provide to them to add value to there business.

In the same sense, for those people like Peter Spann who make there careers out of helping people create wealth utilising many strategies, why is it such a bad thing that they charge a nominal fee for these services comparable to the likley value that could be created from listening to the advice thats being given?

Understandably, Henry Kaye and others have given the industry a bad name but that does not mean that there is still not much to offer from the financial planning/wealth creation industry.

My boss recently took me out for lunch "on the proviso" that I tell him how I built a million dollar plus portfolio of property/shares in less than 1.5 years. During lunch I told him step by step how "I" did it and he paid about $100 for the lunch that we had. Is this a bad thing? No! He learnt something that he would not have learnt had a he read a few books or even attended a few seminars. I am completely with Geoff on this one, he went to Peters seminar and is personally around $700k better off because of it. The nominal fee that he paid is nothing compared to the value that is has clearly created.

Personally, I have not been to any seminars other than a few introductory ones and I will definatley be doing it more in the future to learn more sophisticated, targeted techniques. But when I attend the introductory ones, I look around the room and I know that most people will not be able to translate what is being said into tangible, esculated wealth, goals. But for a a small few it well in which case the presenter has succeeded.

Peter Spann, I have not attended any of your seminars, however I fully commend you for what you have acheived and for having the strength to share with others what you have learnt and bring a strong team together, to enable others who are willing to succeed in this area to rise to the levels that you have. Thank-you again for your continued contribution to Somersoft, I think on balance that your views and experience are much appreciated.

Kind regards

Corsa
 
Here is my experience on the topic of books, seminars, and audio tapes.

I used to love book and read a lot of books. Then, one day, I came across some audio tapes that I found fascinating. I really learnt a lot from them. I discovered that I learnt much better from HEARING a message than from reading you. I guess that the advantage of the audio recording is that they carry more than the words. The voice level and intonations carry emotions that help convey the message.

Having gone to a few seminars, I can say that the seminar format can be a great way to learn. I guess it is because, as in audio recordings, you get more than the words. That doesn't mean that all seminars are good, as many 'free' seminars, are really a disguised advertising sessions.

I have been to one of Peter Spann intro seminar a few years ago and found it to contain a lot of useful information, well worth the seminar cost.

My summary would be, try it out and see if it works for you. No point debating who prefers blue or red. :)

Cheers,
 
Back almost sore

yadreamin said:
THANKYOU THANKYOU you have helped this little investor. A big pat on the back for you

Thank you - I appreciate the thoughts and understand totally.

PS Did you know "The Castle" is available on DVD again?
 
Thanks again

Corsa said:
Thank-you again for your continued contribution to Somersoft, I think on balance that your views and experience are much appreciated.

Thank you for the compliments - I appreciate it.

And congratulations on your own personal success - you have much to be proud of.
 
A quick question Peter.

On "Hot Property" last night, there was an auction in Sydney where the anonymous winning bidder drove a red Ferrari.

Was that somebody who borrowed your vehicle for the day in order to impress?
 
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