Global Debt

I have been spending some time recently going through the global debt position. Many countries around the world have been executing fiscal expansionary policies financed by debt to counter the GFC (and which has been justified on the basis that the Great Depression was caused by the attempts of governments to balance budgets in a period of declining revenue, ie the Great Depression would have only been a Great Recession, if governments had adopted a Keynsian economics approach).


The US & UK are both going to have phenomenal debt levels of near 90% of GDP. Now to put this into perspective, WWII cost the US 130% of GDP and the American Civil War 104%. And to put it into even more perspective, Operation Iraqi Freedom cost 2% of US GDP and the Vietnam War 12% of GDP.

Next year alone, the US federal deficit will go to US$1.5 trillion+ which is about US$20,000 for every family in the country (and this is only for ONE YEAR). Over the course of the slump, the total could run to US$100,000 per family.

Ok the above facts are nice 'academia' land statistics. But whats the relevance. WHO WILL PAY FOR THIS?????
After the US depression in the 1930's the US raised taxes on the top tax payers from 25% in 1931 to 63% in 1932 to 79% in 1936 and STAYED UP THERE FOR 40YEARS, until the 1970's, upon which it has consistantly reduced up to now (back down to less than 40%).

Obama said his will take action to cut taxes for 95% of Americans. This is all well and good, but the top 5% of income earners pay 60% of all US income tax, up from 36% in 1980.

Now whats the relevance of all this for a property site????

At the end of the day, the government has to pay for this debt. Either through debasing money (ie higher future inflation, coupled with depressed interest rates) or through taxes.

The 'average' person wont pay the taxes, as the average person doesnt earn enough to pay the taxes, so it will be levied against the 'wealthy' and the aspirational class.

Now most of the old timers on this forum will know i am no D&G'er, in fact, i use periods of market uncertainty and fear, to acquire assets at prices less than their long term intrinsic value.

However i think this issue of global debt has significant ramifications with regards to strategic asset allocation. In Australia the problem SHOULD be less than in the US and UK, but with Kevin Rudd handing out money like there is no tomorrow for short term gains, we could still find ourselves in a future flux (not to mention some of the dire states budgets like NSW).

I would welcome any intelligent comments with regards to this issue.

My first thought (and its only an initial impression at this stage) is i would be weary of more 'expensive' suburbs with regards to residential investing. Many of these suburbs have been supported by the aspirational class and the tax reductions accorded to this class over the last 15 years (the Howard Battlers).

The major problem i see is that debt issues are RARELY resolved quickly. Hence debt inspired recessions take much longer to recover.
 
Hi Chilliaa,

Now you know that I have a different perspective on things, so here it is ;)

Money and debt are the same thing. All money is created out of thin air, borrowed into existence from banks, or printed, sorry "quantitatively eased" into existence from governments.

Debt as such has always appeared to be a huge unbeatable issue, yet we seem to always survive. The usual modes of survival are inflation and more debt. We (as in many countries worldwide) were in a debt crisis unsurpassed since the great depression in 1990-91 and around 1981-82 and 1974-75. Get the picture??
The current crisis, 'the worst since the great depression', will eventually fade into a boom period (inflation and higher debt) until it leads to a crisis that is 'the worst since the great depression'.

There is no limit on how much money can be created, it is an idea of man.

bye
 
chilliaa we are going through a big period of asset price deflation, the biggest since the 1930s and possibly the biggest ever. I can see asset price deflation continuing for at least another year in property.

Rudd turned a 20B surplus into a 60B deficit, but federal receipts are only down 15B. Oldtimers will laugh when I call this "Whitlam on steroids".

If you do invest in property then I suggest a "flight to quality" - withing 10km of the CDB, near transport/schools, middle of the market, etc.
 
I agree entirely with this. You sound like a voice of experience CB.

My opinion is either stay out of the market for now or - if you have to - buy quality property as below.

Dont buy short term neutral geared duds in the outer suburbs. They will be hammered when the FHBG stops and wont recover for maybe a couple thousand years.

If you neg. gear and buy this type of property only god can help you. :D

If you do invest in property then I suggest a "flight to quality" - withing 10km of the CDB, near transport/schools, middle of the market, etc.
 
chilliaa we are going through a big period of asset price deflation, the biggest since the 1930s and possibly the biggest ever. I can see asset price deflation continuing for at least another year in property.

Rudd turned a 20B surplus into a 60B deficit, but federal receipts are only down 15B. Oldtimers will laugh when I call this "Whitlam on steroids".

If you do invest in property then I suggest a "flight to quality" - withing 10km of the CDB, near transport/schools, middle of the market, etc.
According to the budget papers tax receipts are down $210bn. That's a long way from your figure, CB
 
Hi Chilliaa,

Now you know that I have a different perspective on things, so here it is ;)

Money and debt are the same thing. All money is created out of thin air, borrowed into existence from banks, or printed, sorry "quantitatively eased" into existence from governments.

...or borrowed from other country like China, Japan, etc....

Debt as such has always appeared to be a huge unbeatable issue, yet we seem to always survive. The usual modes of survival are inflation and more debt. We (as in many countries worldwide) were in a debt crisis unsurpassed since the great depression in 1990-91 and around 1981-82 and 1974-75. Get the picture??
The current crisis, 'the worst since the great depression', will eventually fade into a boom period (inflation and higher debt) until it leads to a crisis that is 'the worst since the great depression'.
the debt amount the world is facing now has no precedent on history, I wouldn't assume that the world can take more debt, even for the medium term. also if most of the world is taking on more debt australia will be effected as well. today for example the AU treasury bonds have a new record yield since november (5.36% for the 10 year term)
 
However i think this issue of global debt has significant ramifications with regards to strategic asset allocation. In Australia the problem SHOULD be less than in the US and UK, but with Kevin Rudd handing out money like there is no tomorrow for short term gains, we could still find ourselves in a future flux (not to mention some of the dire states budgets like NSW).

chilli, I think if you read enough of certain commentaries it's easy to start catstrophising. Now I am no bull with regards to the economy, and have in fact doubted all the current reports of "green shoots," turning the corner after June, blah, blah. But I also refuse to get drawn into what I regard as the overly simplistic, "Surplus good - deficit bad," public opinion. I'm no economist (obviously!) but I do think that deficits have a purpose and if there is ever a time for stimulation this GFC would probably be it! Perhaps I have misunderstood your position.

I suppose there's no actual reason for cheering but forecasts that Aus debt to GDP will reach 13.8% by 2014 should be compared with the figures for US & UK:
http://business.smh.com.au/business...into-insignificance-20090522-bi10.html?page=1

Does anyone know what the top marginal tax rate was in the 1950s??
I ask because I read an article in The Age just after the budget which gave the national debt figure after WWII as something well in advance of the 14% we may soon be facing. Obviously the country survived :rolleyes:, but how did we pay for it then? I imagine chilli may be right that there would only be "the rich" to bail us out....?
 
I agree with Bill.L - in 20 years the level of debt we are in now will look pretty insignificant just like the level of debt we had 20 years ago. And 20 years before that etc etc. The world has come out of worse debt situations better and stronger before.

The amount of debt will always reach new highs by definition but the real value of that debt will swing around with the value of money and that can be controlled in the longer term.

BTW the point about marginal tax rates is no longer that relevant since so little of govt revenue now comes from that source in proportion to the rest...

Of course many are experiencing pain in the meantime and there are opportunities presented to others as a result. But the world will keep turning - Insha'Allah...
 
chilliaa we are going through a big period of asset price deflation, the biggest since the 1930s and possibly the biggest ever.

.


It could yet be a big period of deflation. However as far as pain goes for Australia, I don't think it even compares to the 90's recession yet. [and I realise that the 90's recession was not deflation]. As to the biggest ever, that's crazy. The great depression was massive compared to what's happening now. As was the 1890's bust.

A lot of the share price drops are related to debt rather than assets dropping.

I'd in fact say that if it wasn't for last years blow off top in commodities, caused by hedge funds and speculation, that we would still be regarded as being in a commodities boom. Grain prices are still way above average, oil is booming, the 'massive' cuts to iron ore and coal bring them back to about prices above,,,?? ahh? about 12 months ago. It's why Australia is still doing so well. House prices have hardly even dropped!
 
chilliaa - i agree - the only way to erode debt by "invisible means" is to

create inflation and/or
raise interest rates and/or
tax the wealthy even more.

in which case, i think i'll move to singapore when my property nvesting cycle is complete. no tax on foreign earnings means i can have a CF+ property portfolio after about 15 years of accumulation and never pay tax again.

stick that in your pipe and smoke it, rudd.
 
When was that? I must have missed it...:confused:
also when you talk about debt it is not just public but also private

Excellent point. The $59bn pales against private debts of over $2 trillion.
Oh cr4P! Some of that is, admittedly, mine.
 
Another thing I forgot to mention is that in the "debt as a % of gdp" equation, I am more worried about the denominator. Of course the debt % will go up if GDP falls. Just today OECD countries reported record falls of 2.1 in GDP for the first quarter.:(
 
I agree with Bill.L - in 20 years the level of debt we are in now will look pretty insignificant just like the level of debt we had 20 years ago. And 20 years before that etc etc. The world has come out of worse debt situations better and stronger before.

The amount of debt will always reach new highs by definition but the real value of that debt will swing around with the value of money and that can be controlled in the longer term.

BTW the point about marginal tax rates is no longer that relevant since so little of govt revenue now comes from that source in proportion to the rest...

Of course many are experiencing pain in the meantime and there are opportunities presented to others as a result. But the world will keep turning - Insha'Allah...

Hi,

I agree with Bill L and HiEquity. Debt itself is not a problem as long as it is managed efficiently. If governments utilised debt borrowings efficiently like a seasoned property investor, with the borrowings directed towards activities that generate positive growth (rather than cash handouts), then the GDP of the country will continue to grow at a faster rate than the financial cost of the debt.

It is the same idea is using an IO loan to purchase an IP that appreciates quicker than the interest rate on the loan.

However, we all know that governments seldom utilise debt borrowings effectively and efficiently. :D

Regards
Daniel Lee
 
I was convinced Australia's private debt levels were on an unsustainable trajectory before sub prime blew up.

You want to have a look at the growing reliance Australia has on borrowing foreign $s to prop up property prices.

This is what happens when the property market moves well ahead of wages. Borrowings either have to be printed out of thin air, borrowed from future productivity or from offshore. They certainly won't come from domestic savings. And remember interest paid on borrowed foreign funds doesn't necessarily stay in Australia to feed the money multiplier.

And Aussie banks (well at least NAB and ANZ) realize the music has to stop. The big 4 risk losing their AA credit rating if they don't get domestic retail deposits up to a healthier ratio with the growth of their loan books.

Australian property prices are now more subject to the vagaries of global capital flows than at any time in the past.

and keep in mind global debt might not be the biggest risk in the next 12 mths. North Korea attacking Sth Korea or Japan, terrorists making inroads in Pakistan......these would knock global markets significantly.
 
Hi Chilliaa,

Now you know that I have a different perspective on things, so here it is ;)

Money and debt are the same thing. All money is created out of thin air, borrowed into existence from banks, or printed, sorry "quantitatively eased" into existence from governments.

Debt as such has always appeared to be a huge unbeatable issue, yet we seem to always survive. The usual modes of survival are inflation and more debt. We (as in many countries worldwide) were in a debt crisis unsurpassed since the great depression in 1990-91 and around 1981-82 and 1974-75. Get the picture??
The current crisis, 'the worst since the great depression', will eventually fade into a boom period (inflation and higher debt) until it leads to a crisis that is 'the worst since the great depression'.

There is no limit on how much money can be created, it is an idea of man.

bye

I agree with your logic in the medium term, however that does not mean it's 'right'. Historically i have made my investment money through incorrect asset pricing based on the tendancy for human beings to process information through prisms reflecting their own circumstances and inherent biasness, the main one being near term data bias. Mankinds biased perceptions influence not just market prices, but also the fundamentals that those prices are supposed to reflect.

Now for the last 20years+ your logic has been correct. But does this make it 'right'? or is there a paradigm shift towards debt.

I just cant justify the cycle of ever increasing debt based on the fact that this strategy worked over the last 20 years. This GFC is different, we will not be reverting back to easy credit for a number of years, and in my opinion its its worse, because consumers in western countries have been living beyond their means by financing current consumption through debt. THIS SITUATION HAS TO REVERT, and it is, savings rates are up, and i think this is a trend that will continue into the foreseable future.

There will be a major paradigm shift between using debt to support current consumption/low savings rates, and the cyclical process, of the East lending money to the west to support Western consumption. The world is becoming a global village, and hence those strategies that worked over the last 20 years cannot continue at trend levels for the next 20 years.

There is 'money to be made in them hills' but i dont think it is by replicating past strategies. If we go back far enough, the Roman Empire was a democracy (so nothing new in being a democracy), the Roman Empire reverted to a fiat currency, but reducing the precious metal component in its currency (so nothing new here again), but where si the Roman Empire now???

Some trends continue based on a falicy, and only break, when they break because of their realisation and acceptance of that falicy. The trouble with humans, is that they might have a gut instict that the fallacy is real, but because the market continues in its merry way, they discount the probability of that fallacy being realised.
 
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chilliaa we are going through a big period of asset price deflation, the biggest since the 1930s and possibly the biggest ever. I can see asset price deflation continuing for at least another year in property.

Rudd turned a 20B surplus into a 60B deficit, but federal receipts are only down 15B. Oldtimers will laugh when I call this "Whitlam on steroids".

If you do invest in property then I suggest a "flight to quality" - withing 10km of the CDB, near transport/schools, middle of the market, etc.

In my opinion this is similar to the strategy of buying blue chip shares.
Yes the quality is there, but are price growth sustainable, over the medium run.
There was a strategy in the late 60's called the nifty 50 or something like that. Basically the argument went that if you buy quality blue chip stocks over the long term they cant go down (does this ring a bell with blue chip residential property). This whilst 'historically true' at the time, became a big headache when it became accepted practice, and guess what? the share prices of the blue chips became astronomical as everyone bought into the picture. Now many of the underlying companies were sound, but the share prices were far above intrinsic value. So what did we see at the peak? share prices declined and in fact undershot their intrinsic value by the early 1980's. The fallacy was removed, and in fact because of near term data bias, undershot to the downside.
 
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