granny flat and fire zones

[ditzy dame]

hi everyone

i have, i believe, a sale on my current property.
meanwhile i have read heaps here and am grateful for the forum.
there is a general lack of property locally right now... and specifically that property which allows the creation of a granny flat. i dont care how it is added......new building, addition at the back or up the top, or splitting the house internaly. whatever it takes to make it happen and stay in this general area and not spend beyond capacity in the additions

i actually spoke to brazen the other day and he was helpful but i think he is on holidays so i am asking generally for some help please.

what i am trying to find out (without much help from local council) is ....can i do a granny in an area that is marked as red in this map?
http://www.hornsby.nsw.gov.au/media...hfire-prone-land/Bush-Fire-Prone-Land-Map.pdf

it is a beast of a map and sucks up my laptop memory but i have finally found the street that has the house that is the most attractive out of the little current choice.
it is a *red* street.
the building actually has (and i have yet to see it myself til Thursday and am going off plans and verbal advice).... two kitchens and in fact two distinct living areas already built under the one roof.
this is one variant of what i am after. the downstairs granny is however, i have just ascertained, going to be about 10 sq metres over granny level of 60 sq metres . a room could be technically cut off but it might raise some suspicions in the eyes of the assessor.!!
the question is........does that matter?
i would have to do fire ceilings and whatever....i know tha ti have to do all this if i want to have a legal granny. i do prefer legal as opposed to illegal.
i have also just ascertained that the kitchen is NOT legal but i gather i can get title insurance with the purchase that would cover me for that.
not that i want to go there but .........

now i am getting the message that it might be a challenge in terms of the fire risk seeing as i have finally gotten the map loaded

it is in Westleigh

anyone have any thoughts on the possibility of this being a complying granny in a *red* zone .....which i cant find a definition/meaning of.
or any advice on fire prone areas generally?
the second choice house wise is also.....red.
it has no kitchen but is of less than 60 sq metres so could comply size wise.

houses that are not in fire zones are hard to come by and i have been on the search for a year to get a buyer and also a house that is going to be able to be (preferably) compliant without too much hassle and money


many thanks

ETA......i have read brazens site and note that he says

"If the property is in a Flood Zone, Bush-Fire Zone or Heritage Area, additional material needs to be submitted to your Local Council. Call us for further advice on this."

given i believe he is away ....does anyone have any thoughts please.?
i will try council again tomorrow but they are always sooooooooo opaque with their answers.
i have also mailed my conveyancer to see what he knows/who he knows

 

[Ideo]

Council bushfire mapping is irrelevant to undertaking a granny flat under complying development.

You need to speak with either Council, the RFS or a "suitably qualified consultant" as per the list on the RFS website to get a Bushfire Attack Level Certificate.

If you are BAL 29 or under then you can go down the complying development path, provided you meet all the other requirements.

 

[ditzy dame]

Council bushfire mapping is irrelevant to undertaking a granny flat under complying development.

You need to speak with either Council, the RFS or a "suitably qualified consultant" as per the list on the RFS website to get a Bushfire Attack Level Certificate.

If you are BAL 29 or under then you can go down the complying development path, provided you meet all the other requirements.

thanks Ideo

i have spent tooooo long on the phone with council.
to no avail.
i spoke to rural fire service and some other fire service (it is some hours later now and i forget)
both said they knew nothing except that i would possibly need a fire assessment.

i have found a guy who will look at the plans and give me an informal assessment of the place.
he is in a professional position to be able to do this as i understand it, and works with a certifier. he is not in sydney right now so will do his best online.
i understand i will be given at least an informal intelligent assessment of what might be the situation so i can know if it is totally impossible or if it is simply time and money

i am not intending to mess with the building envelope..... on this house at least......so i am hoping that it is not going to be a major issue to comply

it has taken me soooooooooooooo long to get at least this much help... but i feel better now that i know that someone who knows the rules, will at least check the plans and the zoning for me

that is about all i can ask at this point

god knows what my phone bill is

 

[virgo]

Fire Zone

Hiya DD

I am building a granny flat which is in the same council as you..my house was in the fire zone area but my draftsman managed to do a fire rating(?) which proved to be a low fire rating...

So, all is not lost...no hurry as Westleigh is not in the hot spot now! Too exzy...

 

[Ideo]

The council fire maps are a tracing over aerial photos and are largely useless.

The bal assessment is much more realistic.

I'll pm you the list of suitably qualified consultants if you want. Could be helpful in terms of saving da fees at least.

 

[ditzy dame]

Hiya DD

I am building a granny flat which is in the same council as you..my house was in the fire zone area but my draftsman managed to do a fire rating(?) which proved to be a low fire rating...

So, all is not lost...no hurry as Westleigh is not in the hot spot now! Too exzy...

i am glad that you got yours through.
i dont understand if the fire rating is required anyway.....or if it is the discretion of the certifier.????
this is what i was trying to understand but was getting conflicting info from council and fire services

my experience has been like trying to drill thro jelly.........the floor shifts and the info coming out changes each time i call council.
that was before i knew even about fire ratings... as of only yesterday
i have lived in the area for over 30 years and had bushfires up way too close and never thought about there might be rules for granny flats

if i go ahead with the place i am looking at tomorrow i will get back and pick your brain some more regarding who u used ... if u dont mind.... if i dont get the help i need from the guy i spoke to today.
or Brazen when he gets back

thanks

 

[ditzy dame]

The council fire maps are a tracing over aerial photos and are largely useless.

The bal assessment is much more realistic.

I'll pm you the list of suitably qualified consultants if you want. Could be helpful in terms of saving da fees at least.

so who decides if a BAL is needed........or is it automatic if u are in a fire zone??
i read the page today and all the questions and it was mostly something i did not want to know about. it was too challenging for me LOL

a list of consultants would be useful thank you ...and i know that my RE agent, who gave me the lead in to a certifier and draftsman......would probably use it too because more and more people are looking for properties to add grannys too and it is getting harder and harder to find the places at the right price and then go thro the murk of knowing what to do legally.
well it is for someone like me with no knowledge of buildings and certifications etc etc

 

[Ideo]

Ok, this could be useful:

Link to Planning NSW Factsheet

This is about the changes that allow complying development to be undertaken on bushfire prone land. Although it is referencing the Codes SEPP the Affordable Rental Housing SEPP references the clause in the Codes SEPP to allow development on bushfire prone land.

Here is the list of BPAD Qualified Consultants Link

And here's some RFS info on undertaking complying development Link

If your land is mapped by council as bushfire prone you need a BAL assessment.

 

[ditzy dame]

Ok, this could be useful:

Link to Planning NSW Factsheet

This is about the changes that allow complying development to be undertaken on bushfire prone land. Although it is referencing the Codes SEPP the Affordable Rental Housing SEPP references the clause in the Codes SEPP to allow development on bushfire prone land.

Here is the list of BPAD Qualified Consultants Link

And here's some RFS info on undertaking complying development Link

If your land is mapped by council as bushfire prone you need a BAL assessment.

ideos...........that is great info
dont know why i missed the first link u gave.
the second puts me on a path.
the house is great now i have seen it... but might provide some practical issues in compliance (leaving out the bush fire part of it).
i need some advice on that which would come with a building report i think.
it is tempting to be non compliant seeing as the granny is for me while i am alive or out of a nursing home. it is the nicest ever granny
i set out to be compliant and only want compliance in the event that i ever go to a nursing home and need to rent granny to pay my way.

you have been very helpful and this is all also great info for others who might trudge the path.

i am going to see that my house exchanges tomorrow and then i will see about a tentative offer on this nice house and see what else housewise comes up in the next week

thanks again for clearing my brain ........not totally......but considerably

 

[Propertunity]

...thanks again for clearing my brain ........not totally......but considerably

A line from an episode of Kath & Kim comes to mind
Kath: "Empty your mind...empty your mind...Empty...oh that was quick."

 

[pennyk]

The thread below is our experience with bush fire risk assessment.. also with Hornsby Council. The guy who did our assessment was great. His details are in the thread.

http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75446&highlight=bush+fire+risk+assessment

Initially, council indicated we were in the Flame zone, or whatever the highest risk is.... we ended up BAL 19, I think. So, well worthwhile getting the advice

 

[ditzy dame]

A line from an episode of Kath & Kim comes to mind
Kath: "Empty your mind...empty your mind...Empty...oh that was quick."

now i have only granny info left.
attempts are being made to insert .....via the small leaking holes ....fire rating info.

no space for other unimportant stuff

 

[ditzy dame]

The thread below is our experience with bush fire risk assessment.. also with Hornsby Council. The guy who did our assessment was great. His details are in the thread.

http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75446&highlight=bush+fire+risk+assessment

Initially, council indicated we were in the Flame zone, or whatever the highest risk is.... we ended up BAL 19, I think. So, well worthwhile getting the advice

thanks heaps pennyk

that info and the link is great,

the fog is clearing
i am getting a clue.

the idea of outside shutters is horrible,
no houses have them in the area i am looking at.... so i am assuming it is only being enforced for new dwellings or additions?

given the general and well known lack of egress from westleigh,,, it is not a suburb that one feels like staying for long periods once a fire starts anyway.
i wouldnt have thought.

 

[ditzy dame]

well that was the week that was.
first choice knocked out on grounds of pricing. ( and subsequently... fire risk)
second choice is only a maybe in terms of do we like it.
third choice ..............well i spent all day on the phone and finally spoke to the very very helpful Matthew Willis
FPAA BPAD- A Certified Practitioner
Certification Number BPD-PA 09337
Mobile 0428408577 Phone 02 96543228
A member of the A.B.A.C. group of companies
www.bushfireconsultants.com.au

as per pennyK recommedation.

he has ruled out the third choice which is really the best house in terms of price, comfort and ease of living. but is only 37 metres from a slope of bush,

with exchange on my place delayed by me but proceeding anyway.......i am between a rock and a hard place i think.
i have a delayed settlement and a licence to rent back for a short time so that is about as good as it gets i think

i am watching the real estate pages like a hawk.
i need a direct feed i think!!

the thing i find disappointing is that i have spent a lot of time on this.
a LOT
others might not
the potential for them finding out after setting their heart on a home is huge and the potential for them finding out after settlement that they cant granny flat at all....is high. i know that one place that i have to now consider, has a young couple interested who have ideas of granny flat for an aged relative.
does everyone wait for a 149 certificate to see what the deal is?

i have given Matts details to my conveyencer and to a couple of agents who need to get their act together.
and told him of this forum

i guess most people doing granny flats are not in high risk zones .
one agent suggested to me to move about 8 suburbs over.
sigh

my brain is all wiped out and all i know is that i am back to square one, but marginally more able to sort out choices

 

[Ideo]

You are mad to buy without a s.149

 

[ditzy dame]

You are mad to buy without a s.149

i am not even making an offer or getting building or pest inspections done or taking anything to my conveyencer without knowing if the land is going to pass the fire test for grannies. a 149 is for afters.

matt has been a wonderful help in explaining the sort of properties i should not even think about. which is hard in this general area and excludes those which i like personally to live in.
at least NOW i am not wasting my time on property that will never ever work for me

i find that my previous house was about one of 8 on my old street that was not zoned as fire affected......which is more stupid than i can say seeing as i lived thro a number of fires there and know how i was as affected as my neighbours .
where i live now is only a few houses outside an affected area.
i guess they have to start and finish somewhere but it is all pretty arbitary.
i have always lived in fire prone areas but this is my first attempt to try and granny in one of them


now i know what to look for .........or not.......life is so much easier and i can proceed with more confidence. if i find an *iffy* house in terms of fire rating......then i can get an opinion

not one real estate agent in the general vicinity seems to be aware of the fire plan and the stupidity of their responses (with some exceptions) is sort of scary. yes, i realise it is not their problem but at least one guy who deals with homes skirting busland has been enormously interested and will get the maps and fire info so he can better serve his clients in his usual area. he is also the guy who may well sell me a new house . i hope he does because i think service, intelligent interest and client assistance should be rewarded where possible

i have put too much time into considering places that would never ever do.
now i can stop it.

 

[vaughan]

i am not even making an offer or getting building or pest inspections done or taking anything to my conveyencer without knowing if the land is going to pass the fire test for grannies. a 149 is for afters.

I just looked at 2 contracts for NSW properties I was interested in and BOTH have the section 149 already there. So no ned to wait, just get the contract of sale.

 

[Mick C]

Westleigh - my good old home town

From a personal point of view; having dealt with Hornsby council on regular basis ( the most annoying council ever! with their stupid 40% floor space rule)

If it's fire zoned ;then it will fail the SEPP 10 days granny flat quick approval.

1. It needs a full DA
2. A fire party wall must be installed ( attached)
3. I think certain materials must be used as well
4. + require a bit more room ( for easy access and exit) and size adjustments etc...

According to Hornsby DCP - " bushfire prone land...must comply with the specification and requirements of planning for bushfire protection 2001"


Either way speak to the town planner and confirm.

Regard
Michael

 

[Mick C]

i am not even making an offer or getting building or pest inspections done or taking anything to my conveyencer without knowing if the land is going to pass the fire test for grannies. a 149 is for afters.

Section 149 is probably the most important doc to read + it's free....it provides details about possible granny ( under SEPP) , flooding, fire restriction , basic restriction, some basic council requirements+ any building restriction imposed on that particular house....


Regards
Michael

 

[ditzy dame]

Section 149 is probably the most important doc to read + it's free....it provides details about possible granny ( under SEPP) , flooding, fire restriction , basic restriction, some basic council requirements+ any building restriction imposed on that particular house....


Regards
Michael

thank you.
a westleigh man !!!

my conversations with Matt say that the places i was looking at would both totally fail with the RFS and council. too much bush and too much slope.
houses not so fire prone are.......either too expensive or totally the wrong shape to try and get creative with granny. westleigh is full of houses that have all the bedrooms upstairs and a central staircase. i cant afford to mess with that shape of house and hope to come out with a granny.
the two i found that were perfect for granny down and person up......are these hopeless fire prone homes.
last year there were a couple i could have worked with but last year my buyer fell thro twice.
my conveyencing guy seems pretty switched on and is patient and helpful fortunately.

i went all over the granny rules for *ordinary* places and i think i am ok with them as regards fire rated ceilings and wall partions.... in general theory at least.
i am asking our own Brazen to help me as soon as i ID a place that will less likely burn down

i dont even visit houses that dont meet my criteria in terms of floor plan.
(and now that i am aware of the fire rules....i dont even look at plans of houses outside of possible ok fire ratings)
google is my friend and the fire map is helpful.

today i saw a house that on second visit seems possible . i saw it last year and wiped it off because the owner simply would NOT go away and leave us alone, there was no floor plan and how can you think if there are 20 people and the owner there.
by myself today with another agent......i can see possibilities with a lot of work.
my buyer is to sign tonight and i have 1o weeks to settle with some 4 weeks on licence to renovate/whatever.
i hope some property gets on the market soon or i will end up being seen by agents and sellers as desperate

thanks for your help and comments