Have you studied Think and Grow Rich?

[Peter Parker]

Imagine if you could grab hold of every 6 year old on their first day of school and force them to put away 10% of every single week's pocket money and/or money from doing jobs etc. Then tell them that they will retire at 40 as a very well-off individual, and they would believe you and do as you say..

I believe over-promising the benefits of a particular course of action can be harmful, and the above claim is fanciful unless the child was spoilt rotten with pocket money (so they could get fantastic compound returns from early on).

Even with the magic of constant reinvestment of compound returns, the above recipe would only get (say) a deposit by the person's mid-20s, and maybe outright ownership of a modest home by their 30s (especially if they have a partner with similar discipline).

They would be comfortable but not financially independent, and nowhere near being able to retire.

Assume there is zero inflation and the following incomes:

$10pw pocket money between age 6 and 10 (total $2500 of which $250 would be saved)
$20pw pocket money between age 11 and 16 (total $5000 of which $500 would be saved)
$200pw part-time earnings between age 16 and 21 (total $50 000 of which $5000 would be saved)
$1000pw full time earnings between age 22 and 40 (total $900k of which $90k would be saved)

Account for conservative investing and compound interest and the total saved might be somewhere around $300 - 500k. A fine achievement by age 40 but far below any definition of 'very well off'.

So following that above instruction is an excellent foundation but still an over-promise.

Nope, to be well-off you'd need either:

* Saving a much higher proportion than 10% of income - think 30% plus
* A very high income and thus higher proportional savings (if you can restrain spending)
* Some element of increased risk to raise returns, eg borrowing money to leverage investments, starting a business or high risk/insecure but lucrative employment

So maybe it's better to say that a 10% saving plan will protect you from abject poverty, having to beg and serious need. It will also gives a reasonable chance to buy your own home, and if continued, supplementary investment income over the age pension. But by itself it won't make you rich and shouldn't be promised as such.

 

[MCS_80]

The fact that you distinguish between can and will is astounding if you truly have read the book more than a few times, have you honestly read it even once?.

Are you saying there is no difference between can and will?

And yes, I have read the book more than once. I have listened to the unabridged audio book also approx 10 times also. I dont claim to understand it 100% as yet, nor do I think its an easy book to apply.

Cheers

Mick

 

[markpatric]

Well, I believe it is ridiculous for Napoleon Hill to even discuss the difference between whether you can or will do something in the framework of what the book offers.
The book is supposed to give you the stimulus to start your life changing.

If someone can do something and want to, they will, there is a point where every person quits an undertaking but how can anyone state at which point that is?, especially given that Hill says the point of the greatest success often comes immediately proceeding your greatest failure or discouragement, remember the man who stopped three feet from gold?.
It becomes an unanswerable question, you would not have to look far to find highly successful people who become complete failures and end up in poverty and misery, did they change thier mental attitude all of a sudden?.

It seems like a copout to me that he would distinguish between the two.

It`s like you stand there flapping your arms trying to fly and when you quit he says, you don`t believe enough or that you do not have enough persistance or that you are to lazy.

What he fails to mention is that the world is a big pyramid and what you can or can`t do will also depend on what millions of other people believe they can do, the world is big enough only for a certain amount of millionaires/public speakers/leaders etc.
Who believes more?, there are so many factors it is impossible to answer, but the one who the others believe in the most has a better shot.

There was an author who wrote a book while in jail, a very famous novel, which if he wasn`t in jail for so many years with great despair he could not have written, so a very negative scenario became an incredible lifes work, if he had studied TAGR he may not have written the book at all.

Negative and positive work together, you can`t have one without the other, it is pointless and dangerous to try, not to mention soul destroying for others to be told they should have all the worlds riches if only they weren`t ignorant, dumb or lazy or just plain negative.
It is the height of ignorance to judge others by your own measures when you have been successful.
Why does President Obama smoke?, you would think that someone who clearly is successful on a grand scale could kick the habit easily if he followed Hills book.
Why has his popularity freefalled since he was elected?, surely he has read the book, but finally if the book actually had merit it would have been the most amazing transformation ever in the world, everyone would acheive great things.
You can have ten runners in a race and all are champions and all believe they will win gold, but only one can, that will come down to which one believes the most at the very second he crosses the line and not before, a number of factors can play on his true belief right up to the last second of the finish, it may or may not be necessarily a "knowing" belief ALL ALONG that he would win as Hill says it must be.

 

[Humphrey]

You can have ten runners in a race and all are champions and all believe they will win gold, but only one can, that will come down to which one believes the most at the very second he crosses the line and not before, a number of factors can play on his true belief right up to the last second of the finish, it may or may not be necessarily a "knowing" belief ALL ALONG that he would win as Hill says it must be.

The person who wins that race is the one who runs the fastest. Full stop.

 

[bornfree]

The book is a bit tedious and subtle for me. From what I read years ago success in life requires :
positive thinking
specialise skills/knowledge
persistency.
can't remember what else, good if someone can summarise exactly what the book trying to say, instead of asking reader enlightenment to find the secrets among the hundreds of pages.

 

[Peter Parker]

can't remember what else, good if someone can summarise exactly what the book trying to say, instead of asking reader enlightenment to find the secrets among the hundreds of pages.

It's been a while since I read it, but I think it's something like this:

'If you want something you must imagine yourself with it - every day.

Then this desire will enter your subconsciousness as a belief - every day.

The subconscious will drive your conscious self and the things you do - every day.

And it is through this action that you make it happen as you get nearer to this goal - every day.

And so you've changed yourself to single-mindedly pursue the goal, achieved it and realised you didn't really want it anyway!(*)"


(Of course the goal may be demonstrable by (real) physical science to be impossible - eg flapping your hands to fly. Or it might be of extremely low probability, harmful or plain stupid. But although I don't think it's stated, the book seems to assume that both you and the goal have been tested for sanity first)

(*) I don't think this bit is in the book either

 

[kissfan]

It's been a while since I read it, but I think it's something like this:

'If you want something you must imagine yourself with it - every day.

Then this desire will enter your subconsciousness as a belief - every day.

The subconscious will drive your conscious self and the things you do - every day.

And it is through this action that you make it happen as you get nearer to this goal - every day.

And so you've changed yourself to single-mindedly pursue the goal, achieved it and realised you didn't really want it anyway!(*)"


(Of course the goal may be demonstrable by (real) physical science to be impossible - eg flapping your hands to fly. Or it might be of extremely low probability, harmful or plain stupid. But although I don't think it's stated, the book seems to assume that both you and the goal have been tested for sanity first)

(*) I don't think this bit is in the book either

Very similar to The Secret, that wasn't really a secret.

Regards
Marty

 

[markpatric]

Yes VERY similar to the secret, what an absolute laugh that turned out to be!.

I was quite surprised at how "out there" it was and that so many were fascinated by it.

In answer to Spiderman though, the book TAGR is most definately shooting for the extraordinary dreams, dreams that you just never believe you could acheive, even if others did think you were a fruitcake and most people that do acheive these things very often of course are up against others who think they are being ridiculous or aiming too high.
You are continually baited along the way to believing there is a single secret that unlocks it all and riches will flow to you like you would never have believed.

 

[our obsession]

Incidently, there is an interesting story behind TAGR too:

In 1908, he, (Andrew Carnegie) commissioned (at no pay) Napoleon Hill, then a journalist, to interview more than 500 wealthy achievers to find out the common threads of their success. Hill eventually became a Carnegie collaborator. Their work was published in 1928 after Carnegie's death in Hill's book The Law of Success (ISBN 0-87980-447-5) and in 1937, Think and Grow Rich (ISBN 1-59330-200-2). The latter has not been out of print since it was first published and has sold more than 30 million copies worldwide. In 1960, Hill published an abridged version of the book containing the Andrew Carnegie formula for wealth creation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Carnegie

The person, a little intro:

Andrew Carnegie (25 November 1835 – 11 August 1919) was a Scottish-American industrialist, businessman, entrepreneur and a major philanthropist.

He was one of the most famous leaders of industry of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

He emigrated to the United States as a child with his parents. His first job in the United States was as a factory worker in a bobbin factory.....

With the fortune he made from business, he later turned to philanthropy and interests in education, founding the Carnegie Corporation of New York, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, Carnegie Mellon University and the Carnegie Museums of Pittsburgh.

Carnegie gave away most of his money to establish many libraries, schools, and universities in America, the United Kingdom and other countries, as well as a pension fund for former employees.

He is often regarded as the second-richest man in history after John D. Rockefeller.

Carnegie started as a telegrapher and by the 1860s had investments in railroads, railroad sleeping cars, bridges and oil derricks. He built further wealth as a bond salesman raising money for American enterprise in Europe

The following is taken from one of Carnegie's memos to himself:



Man does not live by bread alone. I have known millionaires starving for lack of the nutriment which alone can sustain all that is human in man, and I know workmen, and many so-called poor men, who revel in luxuries beyond the power of those millionaires to reach.

It is the mind that makes the body rich. There is no class so pitiably wretched as that which possesses money and nothing else.

Money can only be the useful drudge of things immeasurably higher than itself.

Exalted beyond this, as it sometimes is, it remains Caliban still and still plays the beast.

My aspirations take a higher flight.

Mine be it to have contributed to the enlightenment and the joys of the mind, to the things of the spirit, to all that tends to bring into the lives of the toilers of Pittsburgh sweetness and light.

I hold this the noblest possible use of wealth

 

[gooram]

"sex transmutation" bwahahaha.

I know it was written 100 years ago, but pa-lease!

 

[our obsession]

"sex transmutation" bwahahaha.

I know it was written 100 years ago, but pa-lease!

Interesting huh!

Not on his Pat Malone either, it is a theme, an idea? expressed through ages, eg:

Hill, incidentally, is not the only observer who recommended making love with self-control to improve health and genius. Both John Humphrey Noyes and Alice Bunker Stockham, MD recorded similar benefits.

The spiritual benefits of this practice are also mentioned in Lao Tzu’s Hua Hu Ching, the Tibetan Buddhist myth Sky Dancer: The Secret Life and Songs of the Lady Yeshe Tsogyel, and even in the Gnostic Gospels discovered in Nag Hammadi, Egypt in the 1940’s. These sages would agree with Hill’s assertion that,

When harnessed, and redirected along other lines, [the sex drive] maintains all of its attributes of keenness of imagination, courage, etc., which may be used as powerful creative forces in literature, art, or in any other profession or calling, including, of course, the accumulation of riches

That is from:

http://www.reuniting.info/wisdom/sex_abundance_napoleon_hill_think_and_grow_rich

Humans, naturally... such sexual beings, I don't think would escape ideas and hypothesis, and abstract thoughts/expressions on the very core of (some of) our driving forces...

 

[bornfree]

So the whole TAGR book can be summarised in two words : "positive thinking", plus a few other ideas/concepts ?

 

[gooram]

Interesting huh!

Not on his Pat Malone either, it is a theme, an idea? expressed through ages, eg:



That is from:

http://www.reuniting.info/wisdom/sex_abundance_napoleon_hill_think_and_grow_rich

Humans, naturally... such sexual beings, I don't think would escape ideas and hypothesis, and abstract thoughts/expressions on the very core of (some of) our driving forces...

As soon as you redirect it, it is no longer sex drive. Therefore you need to have the same desire for whatever it is you are redirecting it towards. Perhaps a good idea in theory but in practice it will never work.

 

[our obsession]

So the whole TAGR book can be summarised in two words : "positive thinking", together with few other ideas/concepts ?

You can, and did. Summarise in two words.

For me, it's more of an appreciation of an idea taken to the next level, from some of the (not only cleverest minds around), but that they matched those thoughts with deeds.

By this I mean, Carnegie's idea to Hill. Hill then researching/interviewing (don't quote me...2 years?) at the time, over 500 successful people...putting down those pearls of wisdom, putting it into the steps of success..

In a way, is it such a foreign concept to the likes of somersoft forum, albeit it, we are all at way different stages of investing. Principle being a site to gather help, information, ideas...all that. And more. You know we have some pretty impressive folk (not only create the forum-the Somers!!!), but also a power of other pretty experienced wealth accumulators drop by. Share their stories, their thoughts.

I'm sure most of us, at one time or other have had said to us, "it can't be done".

"Thoughts are things that, when they are mixed with definiteness of purpose, persistence and a burning desire for their translation into riches, or other material objects". (Napoleon Hill).

It's my understanding, my interpretation of Napoleon Hill's work as a Philosophy of Personal Achievement.

If it "self helps"" you, I think that is wonderful. If you are not interested, that's your choice, if you disagree on levels of implementation and wording, or think it's just plain nonsense, that's fine too.

Again, some of his time old writings, I see come up again and again..us as investors, and some of us as very successful investors are not that foreign to what he writes about...:

…”Thoughts are Things,” and powerful things at that, when they are mixed with definiteness of purpose, persistence, and a burning desire for their translation into riches, or other material objects.

…when a man really desires a thing so deeply that he is willing to stake his entire future on a single turn of the wheel in order to get it, he is sure to win.

…opportunity…often it comes disguised in the form of misfortune, or temporary defeat…this is why so many fail to recognize the opportunity.

..an intangible impulse of thought can be transmuted into material rewards by the application of known principles.

One of the most common causes of failure is the habit of quitting when one is overtaken by temporary defeat.

…I never stop because men say ‘no’…

Failure is a trickster with a keen sense of irony and cunning. It takes great delign in tripping one when success is almost within reach.

The better portion of all sales I have made were made after people had said ‘NO.’

…keep on keeping on, no matter how hard the going may be, a lesson I needed to learn before I could succeed in anything.

One sound idea is all that one needs to achieve success.

When riches begin to come they come so quickly, in such great abundance, that one wonders where they have been hiding during all those lean years.

…riches begin with a state of mind, with definiteness of purpose, with little or no hard work.

Success comes to those who become success conscious.

Failure comes to those who indifferently allow themselves to become failure conscious.

Another weakness…is the habit of measuring everything, and everyone, by their own impressions and beliefs.

…desire: knowing what one wants.

one of my favorites..->

…”I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul,”…

My brain is hardwired for all this "stuff". It's as cool and as much fun to my mind as your..? perhaps spreadsheets, your fact, your concrete language/communication..people are different, and appreciate different things.

If Hill was around now, I would hope he would be interviewing umm, Warren Buffett, Jan Somers, Oprah, Bill Gates, Richard Branson, Ho Ching, Angela Merkel, Peter Spann...it's fun. People are interesting and fun.

 

[markpatric]

Yes it is fun, and should be presented that way, other than certain path to riches, which imo is fraudulent.

For someone to say that they will never stop selling because someone says no, could quite clearly be construed as becoming adept at selling people what they do not want or need but what you either believe they need or want or simply to benefit yourself.

I`ll bet all telemarketers have read the book, maybe we should all become telemarketers for our businesses, this would mean everyone receiving thousands of calls a day, or an endless stream of door to door salesman?.
this won`t happen of course because there is only ever a very limited % of people who would sell ice to an eskimo and a fridge to keep it in.

 

[MCS_80]

For someone to say that they will never stop selling because someone says no, could quite clearly be construed as becoming adept at selling people what they do not want or need but what you either believe they need or want or simply to benefit yourself.

Remember, Hill states that one should ONLY deal in transactions that benefit ALL parties concerned at all times. This would make the comment you made about people not wanting something forced onto them redundant. If you know the other fella wont benefit from the transaction, this goes against the teachings of Think and Grow Rich and breaks one of the laws of success.

Cheers

Mick

 

[markpatric]

I expected someone to bring that up, but really Hill just tossed that in, almost as an afterthought, he didn`t dwell on it and who decides what benefits others or when it becomes taking instead of giving?, it`s great that he added that concept but really everything ends bad or decays eventually, it`s the time factor again which he conveniently ignores.
His book is testament to that, he earned a lot of money and a lot of fame for writing a book which may have helped very few at the end of the day, it could very well be construed as the ultimate in snake oil marketing, I am sure Robert Kiyosaki read the book, he is a classic example he, along with his associates talked up real estate as if it was a sure thing and a certain way for everyone to gain riches and a life where ANYONE could throw in thier day job, but the law of averages does not allow for it, and HE KNOWS IT!.
It is said by many that Kiyosaki never even had a "rich dad", that he concocted the whole scenario, also I would hazard a guess that he got the idea from the tv show Rich Man Poor Man, he stole others ideas and concepts and packaged it up with clever marketing.
He even used his failed businesses and bankruptcy as a positive spin on it.
who decides whether or not he is a taker or a giver?, I have no doubt whatsoever which one it is.

Bad outcomes happen to positive people every day and many negative people are greatly surprised at what they acheive.
Of course at some point in your success you will truly believe it but it may not be until the very second it happens, not necessarily something that you believed right from the getgo.

 

[markpatric]

Basicly TAGR is based on repeated affirmation of orders to yourself, even better if you can do this aloud until you can reach your subconsious mind with concrete belief in the thing that you want.
You need to try and mix emotion with your belief and honestly believe that you will have the thing you desire.

Yes, just like the religious nuts and further in order to make all areas of your life just as you would dream you would have pages of details.

If the book works as stated why could you not have your desire much sooner by simply believing that you would?, why didn`t Napoleon Hill stop homelessness, or find a cure for cancer, or perform any concrete contribution to society, why didn`t he come up with an answer to why so many live in poverty while such a select few live in paradise, I guess his answer would be he didn`t want to.
Did he or anyone he knows ever get ill?, if so why?.
If his friend had such control over the outcome of his operation why was he there in the first place?, did he think his way into the hospital and then think his way out of it?.

 

[our obsession]

Basicly TAGR is based on repeated affirmation of orders to yourself, even better if you can do this aloud until you can reach your subconsious mind with concrete belief in the thing that you want.
You need to try and mix emotion with your belief and honestly believe that you will have the thing you desire.

Yes, just like the religious nuts and further in order to make all areas of your life just as you would dream you would have pages of details.

If the book works as stated why could you not have your desire much sooner by simply believing that you would?, why didn`t Napoleon Hill stop homelessness, or find a cure for cancer, or perform any concrete contribution to society, why didn`t he come up with an answer to why so many live in poverty while such a select few live in paradise, I guess his answer would be he didn`t want to.
Did he or anyone he knows ever get ill?, if so why?.
If his friend had such control over the outcome of his operation why was he there in the first place?, did he think his way into the hospital and then think his way out of it?.

The only behaviour I can control and choose, is my own.

I have no answers to your questions posed.

The other thing is never underestimate the power of inspiration for all kinds of people, in all walks of life. Sometimes by simply telling our story, sharing what we do, how we are inspired can be compelling to some hearts and minds.

The spark that grew..

As much as our universe needs people that inspire us, we need skeptical, concrete folk too.

All in balance.

 

[our obsession]

Which reminds me, (apologies if someone has posted the link to James Allen's; "As A Man Thinketh" already):

http://www.blkfr8r.com/books/files/AsAManThinketh_BFP_EBooks2_Updated.pdf

Mind is the Master Power that moulds and makes

and man is mind, evermore he takes

The tool of thought, and, shaping what he wills

Brings forth a thousand joys; a thousand ills

He thinks in secret and it comes to pass

Environment is but, his looking-glass

James Allen Free Library, (more books here):

http://james-allen.in1woord.nl/

Including "Eight Pillars of Prosperity"

http://james-allen.in1woord.nl/?text=eight-pillars-of-prosperity

...and:

From poverty to power; or, the realization of prosperity and peace. By James Allen

http://james-allen.in1woord.nl/?text=from-poverty-to-power

...and

Foundation stones to happiness and success. By James Allen

http://james-allen.in1woord.nl/?text=foundation-stones-to-happiness-and-success

Editor’s preface

This is one of the last MSS. written by James Allen.

Like all his works it is eminently practical. He never wrote theories, or for the sake of writing, or to add another to his many books; but he wrote when he had a message, and it became a message only when he had lived it out in his own life, and knew that it was good.

Thus he wrote facts, which he had proven by practice...

Foreword

How does a man begin the building of a house?

He first secures a plan of the proposed edifice, and then proceeds to build according to the plan, scrupulously following it in every detail, beginning with the foundation. Should he neglect the beginning - the beginning on a mathematical plan - his labour would be wasted, and his building, should it reach completion without tumbling to pieces, would be insecure and worthless.

The same law holds good in any important work; the right beginning and first essential is a definite mental plan on which to build.

Nature will have no slipshod work, no slovenliness and she annihilates confusion, or rather, confusion is in itself annihilated.

Order, definiteness, purpose, eternally prevail, and he who in his operations ignores these mathematical elements at once deprives himself of substantiality, completeness, happiness and success.

JAMES ALLEN