How to identify load bearing wall

[Panda]

Hi all,
I'm looking at a potential unit. The unit is on the top floor. I'm thinking that If I decide to buy this unit that I would like to remove a wall.

It seems that the wall itself is made of concrete/brick I cant visually see what the wall is made of as it is covered in wall paper. However, a knock with the knuckles tells me its brick. The wider unit block construction is brick.

The wall itself is a hallway and divides the living area with a room so it is not what I would call a "main" wall (for example a bedroom wall or a wall that separates internal from external).

Is there any way that I can tell if the wall is load bearing?
If it is load bearing does that mean that the whole wall has to stay or can (with engineering involvement) be partly removed?
Any one with experiences or tips of removing a wall in a unit.

Any thoughts?

 

[westminster]

It all depends on the structures which are on top of the wall, ie the roof.

It might have been built to put load on a nearby wall if it's a hall way and not that wall or it could be a load bearing wall to take the load of the roof and you'll need to have an engineer/builder come in and work out if you should:

a. keep part of it that is under a roof support beam
b. install a beam to take the load.

 

[vaughan]

You'll need approval from Strata to remove the wall even if it is not load bearing because it's not your wall. Approval may also be needed from council.

Search the forums for other posts regarding structural changes to strata units, there are some legal issues involved. Do not start work before getting approval from strata.

 

[dex]

It's not rocket surgery. Stick your head through the manhole and see if the roof is load bearing or a truss roof. Use Google images if you're not sure what to look for. If it's a truss (most likely) then the weight is bearing on the external walls so you can go ahead and knock down some internal walls. Use an angle grinder to cut the locking bricks in the adjacent wall and a sledgehammer to knock out the unwanted bricks. I've done it a few times without consulting body corp and no problems.

 

[travelbug]

It's not rocket surgery. Stick your head through the manhole and see if the roof is load bearing or a truss roof. Use Google images if you're not sure what to look for. If it's a truss (most likely) then the weight is bearing on the external walls so you can go ahead and knock down some internal walls. Use an angle grinder to cut the locking bricks in the adjacent wall and a sledgehammer to knock out the unwanted bricks. I've done it a few times without consulting body corp and no problems.

WARNING WARNING!!! DO NOT listen to this person!!! That's opening yourself up for litigation lawyers.

No problems only because you haven't been caught. Wait until you sell and someone sees it. THEN the fun will start.

BTW you do not do surgery on rockets.

Do Not try removing wals without strata consent. Yo'd need to get an engineers report. It wouldn't be cheap and I doubt your chances. You have not only your unit but the ones below you to consider.

 

[A Jeremy]

Yeah I gotta disagree with dex as well. You said load bearing or truss roof but truss roofs are load bearing. In no way am I telling you to knock it down but generally if you can see along the length of the top of the wall and can see nothing directly supported by it, it may not be load bearing.

You are, however, on the top floor and the one that has the highest bracing requirements. Block walls provide 12kN per lineal metre so I wouldn't be taking it out unless you knew that the floor would still meet the bracing requirements.

 

[Propertunity]

Discussed previously here:
http://somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67088
and here: http://somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?p=948637

 

[Scott No Mates]

Dex's comments are soooo far off the mark.

The ceiling generally won't have a manhole as it should be fire rated unless the walls go all the way to the underside of the roof to form a fire compartment.

The roof is common property, by altering the structure (also cp) you are risking damage to areas outside of your sole proprietorship.

You are modifying or removing a wall. Regardless whether or not it is load bearing, council building approval is required. You will need body corporate's signature on the application.

 

[Jane - Hotspace]

Yes disagree with Dex too - also remember that if you don't get the correct council and body corporate approvals you will probably be compromising the validity of your insurance.

 

[Chomp]

Get a structural engineer to check it, you will probably have to get a license from council to do the work which will need his approval anyway.

 

[Rentwithpets]

A structural engineer is the best way to start. This could turn out to be either be a cheap project or an expensive one if it is load bearing.

Looking from a different angle...how much money will you need to spend on the various inspection fees, lawyer fees to draft a document for body corporate, council approval, etc. Will this structural reno add enough value to a unit to justify the time and cost?

Another consideration is who is on the body corporate, and are they likely to approve or block this project? Will you be able to get majority vote? One good way to find out is to knock a few doors in the building and talk to the neighbours before spending any money.

 

[vbplease]

This is a potential purchase so spending money on a structural engineers report could be a waste of money if the purchase doesn't go through.. I'd be going through with the purchase based on the value without any improvements. They may well be knocked back by body corp or prohibitive in cost if load bearing..

I don't see how knocking out a wall at the cost of losing a room is going to add value anyway.. No deal!

 

[handyandy]

The wall itself is a hallway and divides the living area with a room so it is not what I would call a "main" wall (for example a bedroom wall or a wall that separates internal from external).

This more than anything could indicate that it is a structural wall. The reason the wall was put there was to support the roof.

You haven't indicated the age of the building as this will have a bearing on the type of roof construction used and consequently whether the internal walls are load bearing or not.

I would also highlight the issues with strata and the extra expense that strata will enforce to ensure that good building practices are followed.

Cheers

 

[SamL]

Out of interest how tall is the building? These kind of walls might not necessarily be load bearing in the vertical sense but depending on the design in could be a shear wall which transfers horizontal load out to the external walls and definitely wouldn't be allowed to be removed.

 

[dex]

I stand by everything I said.

1/ if the unit is on the top floor of a 3 story walk up it will probably have a truss roof depending on age of building.
2/ manholes are used in top story units.
3/ some truss roofs are designed to use interior walls as a mid span but if the wall is parallel to the trusses it's probably not load bearing.
4/ OP is on the wrong forum to ask this type of question. I suggest you pop over and ask the guys at one these forums and supply a floor plan with the proposed wall you want to take out. Put your head through the manhole and take some pics as well.
http://www.renovateforum.com/
http://www.woodworkforums.com/
5/ it's not rocket surgery.

 

[travelbug]

That's fine Dex but to suggest:-

If it's a truss (most likely) then the weight is bearing on the external walls so you can go ahead and knock down some internal walls. Use an angle grinder to cut the locking bricks in the adjacent wall and a sledgehammer to knock out the unwanted bricks. I've done it a few times without consulting body corp and no problems.

is just wrong. It's like someone saying "just rewire the power point". Yes there are people that do it but to suggest to a newby to do illegal work isn't right.

 

[wylie]

I know only what I know from our son's purchase. The unit has a hip roof just above his top floor unit. The manhole is in the public area, not inside his unit.

He looked at knocking a cupboard through from a small bedroom with no built-ins but that backed onto the large built-ins in the main bedroom. This would have meant the large built-in could be accessed from both rooms.

What I found out is that if he changed the internal walls in any way, he took full responsibility for anything that might happen, even 20 years down the track.

It would have to be engineered and signed off, but according to the information we got from others who had done it, even with the liability insurance held by the engineer, the responsibility would be on my son, forever.

That was enough to knock that idea on the head.

 

[dex]

That's fine Dex but to suggest:-



is just wrong. It's like someone saying "just rewire the power point". Yes there are people that do it but to suggest to a newby to do illegal work isn't right.

Yes that's true. I have experience in building and construction so my reply was succinct but I wouldn't expect a noob to actually do it. People can share info and give opinions but don't take advice from strangers on the internet without checking first.

 

[handyandy]

Dex

You are assuming it is a truss roof but this is very much age dependent.

I just happen to own 4 unit block 3 stories up and not one of them has a truss roof - all custom.

I am involved with another 3 strata blocks and on the executives and not one of those blocks have truss roofs.

I have townhouses that have truss roofs but they were built in the late 80's and onwards.

Recent builds of high rise units I observed still didn't have truss roofs but no doubt there are more truss roof these days than not.

The point is that with a 3 story walk up it is likely an older building and has a high probability of not having a truss roof.

As such any wall that runs perpendicular to the joist is more likely to be load bearing than not load bearing.

Even where there are trusses depending on the span there can be mid span load bearing walls.(You already mentioned)

Cheers

 

[dex]

Handandy, yes I mentioned in point 1 of post #15 that it could be a truss roof depending on the age of the building and agree walls running perpendicular to the joists are more likely to be load bearing than ones running parallel. The properties I did work on were built in the 80's and had truss roofs but I guess we'll never know unless the OP sticks his head through the manhole and takes some pics.