IP with Granny flat

[brazen]

1. The land does not have to be 450 sq m if the Granny Flat is attached to the main dwelling

2. The new SEPP runs under the NSW Housing Code and does not need a subdivision (in fact it requires that you not subdivide) and they are legally rentable as they are. The NSW Government is encouraging rental...its the entire point of the legislation.

3. The aspect of tenants existing right is a legal matter and with the Tenancy laws. If you have existing tenants, they have every right to expect use of the entire property- unless they agreed otherwise.

 

[brazen]

Throwing a wild question out there.....

can one split a 2 storey house into 2 dwellings? Separate entrances from the outside, one leads to downstairs and another upstairs. They will be totally separate. It’s like a duplex, but on top of each other rather than next to each other?


Anyone ever heard/seen this? Who would i need to speak to about something like this?

Yes.
Definitely. Its also encouraged under the new SEPP rules.



http://www.planning.nsw.gov.au/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=eCNg9MQW0UU=&tabid=313
"CONVERTING PART OF YOUR HOME INTO A GRANNY FLAT
It is simple to convert part of your current home into a
granny flat. The alterations to your house must be internal
and the only external change should be the new entrance
to the granny flat. As the development is contained within
the existing house, there is no restriction on the lot size."

 

[twodogs]

2. The new SEPP runs under the NSW Housing Code and does not need a subdivision (in fact it requires that you not subdivide) and they are legally rentable as they are. The NSW Government is encouraging rental...its the entire point of the legislation.

There are councils with their own rules for secondary dwellings, presumably in addition to the NSW code (unless they are one of the few that are exempted for it).

I know of one council, Wollondilly, that require the property owner to reside in one of the dwellings. This is would be an issue for the investor trying to rent both dwellings to different parties.

Do you know if this can be enforced by a local council, or does the SEPP override the Council’s rules in how a secondary dwelling is used not only how it is constructed ?

I can see nowhere in the SEPP or regs that states anything about both dwellings being rented. In fact, it often states that the secondary dwelling is next to the "family" home, implying an owner occupier. It would have been to good to see the rentable status of each dwelling explicitly stated, that would be just too easy of course...

 

[brazen]

There are councils with their own rules for secondary dwellings, presumably in addition to the NSW code (unless they are one of the few that are exempted for it).

I know of one council, Wollondilly, that require the property owner to reside in one of the dwellings. This is would be an issue for the investor trying to rent both dwellings to different parties.

Do you know if this can be enforced by a local council, or does the SEPP override the Council’s rules in how a secondary dwelling is used not only how it is constructed ?

I can see nowhere in the SEPP or regs that states anything about both dwellings being rented. In fact, it often states that the secondary dwelling is next to the "family" home, implying an owner occupier. It would have been to good to see the rentable status of each dwelling explicitly stated, that would be just too easy of course...

The SEPP overrides Council. Council has a total say of Zero.
The granny flat provision is embedded within the Affordable Rental Housing SEPP.
Its quite clear you can rent out granny flats and houses; and it would be illegal to stop people renting out the main dwelling ofcourse

Its why they call it Rental housing.

http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/maintop/view/inforce/epi+364+2009+cd+0+N
3 Aims of Policy
The aims of this Policy are as follows:
(a) to provide.....affordable rental housing,
(b) to facilitate.......new affordable rental housing

Since Secondary Dwellings (granny flats) and Primary Dwellings are allowed within the Rental SEPP and the NSW Government has stated:
http://www.planning.nsw.gov.au/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=eCNg9MQW0UU=&tabid=313
These secondary dwellings also give families the chance to use a Granny Flat as a source of additional income in these challenging economic times.

and...

Our new Affordable Rental Housing - State Environmental Planning Policy (SEPP) provides a range of planning incentives to encourage home owners and developers to invest and create new affordable rental housing.

and..

The new policy will better support opportunities for the creation of granny flats in line
with the State Government’s actions to boost the supply of affordable rental accommodation.

 

[twodogs]

Thanks for the info, that's good enough for me! Still, this line has bothered me in the past:

These secondary dwellings also give families the chance to use a Granny Flat as a source of additional income in these challenging economic times.

as it implies families may use the secondary dwelling for income. Of course nothing says that both dwellings can't be rented and as you say, this is all part of the Affordable Rental polices.


I have property in Wollondilly, puting some ideas together. From the current (and proposed new) Wollondilly DCP

B. Granny Flat
Granny flats are allowed in all residential zones. A granny flat must
be within the curtilage of a dwelling house and have a gross floor
area no greater than 60m2. In addition, the owner of the land must
occupy either the dwelling house or the granny flat.

A secondary dwelling, approved and constructed under the SEPP and possibly with no contact with the council, may be in conflict with their DCP. Have you experienced this before ?

 

[brazen]

RE: Renting out BOTH the main and secondary dwellings:
The State Affordable Rental Housing SEPP overwrites and overrules the Wollondilly DCP (and any other DCP). You can definitely rent both out.

Ive checked with NSW Planning.
Its encouraged.
Its legal.

Note: DCP's are not really laws, they are blanket guides and they are flexible. It's LEP's and SEPP's that are actual laws. To defeat these you need to go to the Land and Environment Courts (but that's a whole other story..).

 

[pnikinc]

Hey, Perp, what did you end up doing with that granny flat after the council told you you cant rent it out? I'm assuming your council wouldnt have let you just keep it there if it is illegal.

well I'm currently in a similar situation. i have an illegally built granny flat and my neighbours also complained too. now i've got a proposed order to take the whole thing down, or get it legally certified to the councils standards which depending on which builders/engineers/archeitect i hire can cost me a lot.

Just wondering, if you did get your granny flat completely legalised, who did you use (building/architect assoc.) to get it fixed and how much?

 

[virgo]

Illegal Granny flat

Hi

I had an illegal (unauthorised ) granny flat which the neighbours complained too. I hired a private certifier (contact Brazen who might be able to help?) who advised me what to do; mainly fireproof the wall that is next to neighbours fence. I engaged a builder to do that....all it all about 5K to legalise it with the council. But the rent was well worth it! Good luck!

 

[redwing]

I noticed at the back of the latest YIP mag that Property Secrets (Australia)are into the Granny Flats (removable) now also.

Are PS still active in NSW, you don't seem to hear or see much of them nowadays ?

 

[devo76]

I notice you have two methods to get a flat approved.
10 day method via a private certifier or a DA through your local council.

If you go the local council way must they still agree to the affordable housing SEPP or is it only approved as per the local council DCP ???

On a side note i have had hell with my place

1000 sqm corner block with house and granny flat.
I want to build on the back then subdivide( I have to do it this way due to finished block size/council policy)

They say a dual occ already exists.
I say its a granny flat not dual occ
They say its built to dual occ spec which is why it can be rented seperatly
i say what do i have to do to get DA through.
They say decommision flat and join it to existing house.
I say f#@k off. you have to be joking.
They say its this or i cant build new house.

So i have to decommision flat and join to house with all weather connection.
Remove council approval for flat and make it one big house !!!!!!!.
Now build new property
Now subdivide
At this point i am planning to get the flat re approved under the new granny flat rules and give the council the finger. All legal.

The core of the problem is although the DA includes the subdivision. The whole project must be approved as a dual occupancy first and the flat is stuffing that up( two houses and flat = 3 not a dual). As others have said, common sense shows what i am trying to achieve and the end product will comply. But i must play the game and do a little bit of shuffling during the process.

Crazy but what can you do.

 

[Perp]

Hey, Perp, what did you end up doing with that granny flat after the council told you you cant rent it out? I'm assuming your council wouldnt have let you just keep it there if it is illegal.

Yes, I'm just using it as storage. In my case, the structure is legal as a garage (which it hasn't been since WII, mind you!) but not approved as 'habitable space'.

 

[PALOHH]

Heya,

Im very much a newbie and read through this thread with great interest as I have my PPOR in Wollondilly. I am hoping to convert my shed into a 'Granny Flat' and of course rent it out to non family members.

My issue is that my PPOR is a non residential block - Rural 2 under the new Wollondilly DCP.

Has anyone had any luck with getting a DA approved granny flat on rural blocks under NSW Granny Flat Laws? (With the possibility of turning PPOR into IP with GF - 2 incomes from one as mentioned in previous posts in this thread.

Also, has anyone had any luck with the use of temporary/relocatable/transportable secondary dwellings/granny flats as complying with the NSW Granny Flat laws?

Summersoft - What a wealth of information, and a very active membership, well done.

Cheers,
PALOHH

 

[megan]

Hi,

I was wondering if you have had any feedback with this. We also have a shed in this council area & are interested in what you can actually do in regards to granny flats.

 

[brazen]

RE: Granny Flats on Rural Blocks:
Some Council's do allow for granny flats on rural land (Penrith recently changed it's policy) but some dont.

Wollondilly has a new LEP (its only a draft atm but will be released soon) which says you can have a 'secondary dwelling' (granny flat) on rural land BUT it has to be attached to the primary dwellling.
Here's the weird part though- they do allow detached 'dual occupancy' in some zones...the definition of dual occ vs secondary dwellings is pretty much the same except secondary dwellings can't be larger than 60 sq m.

So it may just be possible to have a separate detached 'dwelling' in some of Wollondilly's Rural Zones.

I rang Sandra at Council today to get some clarity on this but you have to call between 8:30 and 10 am to speak to the more experienced Duty Planner. If I get time I'll do that tomorrow and report back for you^^

Hope that helps.

Brazen.

 

[neK]

Brazen, have you got any info about putting up a fence to divide the properties?

From what I've been told (and also some research), even though the NSW government overrides the local council, I don't think there is a mention of fences. It falls back onto the fencing act.

My understanding is that the council doesnt like you putting up fence and divide it as it technically creates two properties (while they only get to charge one set of rates), but there is nothing in the legislation that specifically prohibits it.

Also there must be some "common area" from what I've been told.. thoughts?

 

[brazen]

Brazen, have you got any info about putting up a fence to divide the properties?

From what I've been told (and also some research), even though the NSW government overrides the local council, I don't think there is a mention of fences. It falls back onto the fencing act.

My understanding is that the council doesnt like you putting up fence and divide it as it technically creates two properties (while they only get to charge one set of rates), but there is nothing in the legislation that specifically prohibits it.

Also there must be some "common area" from what I've been told.. thoughts?

Hey nek
It's my understanding that internal fences aren't really an issue. Bear in mind though, that for corner blocks like yours, you need to lower the height as you approach the boundary in order to allow adequate visual access for our little neighbourhood pedestrians. So any exiting vehicles can be seen, if you know what I mean.
Another option is to splay any boundary fences near a driveway (at 45 deg) in order to allow driver(s) and pedestrians adequate clearances. You were going to stay with a shrubbed boundary fence from memory? ..oh yea but they were adopted (stolen?) by locals? Nasty little hobibits.

If you use something like a nice bamboo fence internally, you dont have to dig massive holes to support it and you shouldnt have an issue- keep it to a maximum of 1.8 m AGL.

P.S. Common Area:
Under the Affordable Housing (SEPP) legislation, there must be an area directly accessible from each of the 2 dwellings that's a minimum area of 4 m x 6 m...whether it's policed or not is quite another matter
I think you easily meet the above prescription, since you have provided an area directly behind the granny flat- at least that's how I sited it on the Site Plan I drafted for you; or did granny flats australia change the location?

Brazen.

 

[neK]

the designed stayed pretty much the same. I think the only change was the widening of the hallway from 900mm to 1000m.

How strong is the bamboo fence? The last thing I want would be for it to fall down.

 

[brazen]

the designed stayed pretty much the same. I think the only change was the widening of the hallway from 900mm to 1000m.

How strong is the bamboo fence? The last thing I want would be for it to fall down.

sorry nek I mean to cover a fence you don't like the look of (colorbond etc)..meaning you wont have to dig additional posts to attach it. I suppose that wasn't very clear, sorry.

 

[NSWinvester]

Ok I have a granny with with my new property purchase, converted garage it looks like.

I need suggestions for private certifiers in Southwest Sydney area please.

Lets say if I were to not get it approved and let it out for rent and couple years down the track they find out that the structure isn't approved, what can they do in terms of penalties and fines? demolishing I'm not really worried about as I will just convert it back to the garage.

 

[BuildingBlocks]

Lets say if I were to not get it approved and let it out for rent and couple years down the track they find out that the structure isn't approved, what can they do in terms of penalties and fines? demolishing I'm not really worried about as I will just convert it back to the garage.

Not sure how you would go about any type of insurance either (building or landlord insurance etc).