Is this considered fraud?

[capitalist]

Hi all, in early November 2003 i paid a cash deposit ($2,450) to a guy (Steve) to install a new kitchen for me. The kitchen was meant to be installed a month later.

He has made constant excuses (wife cheating, tight cashflow, people owe him money, benchtop guy not ready etc) for not installing the kitchen and i am still waiting.

I found out who his landlord is and he tells me that Steve has not been paying his rent and has now locked him out of the factory. The landlord tells me he's locked him out (all his gear is in the factory) and won't let him back in until the overdue rent is paid. He also told me that another guy called him and said Steve took $5k from him for a kitchen that was meant to be delivered last October.

It appears this guy has been going around quoting for kitchens, taking a 50% deposit and not turning up with the kitchen.

Is this a civil matter or can i get the cops onto him by arguing it's fraud?

Any tips on how to avoid this in the future with tradesmen? A lot will argue they need a deposit to buy the materials.

This is on the Gold Coast where it seems all the cowboys and sharks congregate.

 

[Gill Bates]

He should have a licience from the QBSA ( Qld Building Services Authority www.bsa.qld.gov.au ) . Refer http://www.bsa.qld.gov.au/scripts/factsheet.exe?id=1

I think the licience # should be shown on adds. They will be most interested to hear about this , whether he has a licience or not.

Good ideas at , http://www.bsa.qld.gov.au/scripts/factsheet.exe?id=24 "Preventing Building Disputes"

I would ask for a list of 10 recent clients and phone numbers and ring up and ask if their were any problems and would they use the guy again? I wwould remove some of the high cost items from the initially purchased maateriaals until they where actually needed to be installed . ie supply $ for timber etc , but supply $ for oven and extractor grill when ready to install ( this could be 600 - $1000 )

 

[sbe]

I'd look into small claims tribunal.

Doesn't cost much to go to (Something like under $50), for disputes up to around $5,000.

Make sure you attend and put forward your case. Qld does seem to have some interesting ways of defending it's shonky businesses.

People need to take people like this to task (court), otherwise no convictions are ever recorded, and when you check them out, they come up clean....

Best of luck.

Simon.

 

[BUNDY]

Capitalist,

This is not a criminal matter (not Fraud).

It is a civil matter and I agree with sbe, I'd be chasing him through the small claims court. Just go into the Southport Court House, see one of the clerks, fill out a claim form, attach copies of your contracts for the kitchen.

The quicker you get this done, the more chance you have of getting some money. (particularly before everyone else commences proceedings against him)

A court date will be set and your kitchen man will be summonsed to court.

Often once people receive summons' they come to the party - or alternatively do the runner.

Can you let me know who the kitchen guy is. -I'm about to get quotes for a couple of kitchens for my development.

By the way, phone the BSA and let them know what happened if he is registered they may be able to assist.

Best of luck
BUNDY.

 

[willair]

This may also help try this number.ph 07 32242004,QLD office of Fairtrading
in Brisbane,This is a civil matter and you may well have to use the courts
to gains your money,but the costs of the legal can stop most people.
this person does not have any management structure ,and when and if some person takes the company to court they just close the doors and start up under another name the next day..I stil think the Gold Coast has good tradesman but with all the new people that come into QLD each day
most off the bad ones hit the Gold Coast first..
good luck
willair..

 

[always_learning]

It appears this guy has been going around quoting for kitchens, taking a 50% deposit and not turning up with the kitchen.

Is this a civil matter or can i get the cops onto him by arguing it's fraud?

This would have to be fraud! In my opinion it is completely illegal if I enter into an agreement and take a deposit to supply goods and or services, when I had no intent or means to supply goods or perform the services then I would be guilty of fraud. Before taking capitalists money did this guy know he couldnt deliver on the services he promissed, if so and the money was taken in a fraudulent manner. I would get the cop's knocking on this guys door...a mild sense of panic may set in and he could return your money.

 

[Aceyducey]

This would have to be fraud! In my opinion it is completely illegal if I enter into an agreement and take a deposit to supply goods and or services, when I had no intent or means to supply goods or perform the services then I would be guilty of fraud. Before taking capitalists money did this guy know he couldnt deliver on the services he promissed, if so and the money was taken in a fraudulent manner. I would get the cop's knocking on this guys door...a mild sense of panic may set in and he could return your money.

Always_learning,

That's not how Australian law works - no matter how much you wish it to.

Police wouldn't touch such a small & borderline case with a bargepole....

Capitalist, your best route is small claims for your issue & speak to the police so they can catch this guy if he does something big enough for them.....

The reason many conmen get away with their cons for so long is that people:
a) Are too embarrassed to report to the police that they were conned
b) Not enough people report an individual (due to (a) to make it worth the police's time chasing them.

BTW: ACA or TT like this sort of 'Current Affairs' - if small claims meets the same hedges from the person, you could pursue the media circus route - if nothing else it makes many people aware of the person conducting the scams & gives the police a reason to take action.

Alternatively, you can always hire some Samoans.....

Cheers,

Aceyducey

 

[always_learning]

Fraud: "Law: An intentional perversion of truth for the purpose of obtaining some valuable thing or promise from another."

Fraud: " Any decietful or dishonest conduct, involving acts or omissions or making of false statements orally or in writing, with the object to obtaining money or other benefit from, or evading a liability. In general terms, fraud is the use of deceit to obtain and advantage or avoid an obligation"

...I dont think this kitchen guy is guilty of salesman BS. ie. "embellishment of the truth"...

Surely if this guy persistenly and knowingly took money for goods and services he knew he couldnt perform and had no intention of performing he is guilty of fraud. Proving it I suppose is more difficult.

 

[capitalist]

Thanks for all the helpful replies, much appreciated.

An update: I intend to take civil action against him through the Small Claims Tribunal even though it's a hassle. I'd prefer my deposit back or the kitchen installed.

I've seen a solicitor who tells me it is fraud if this guy is going around collecting deposits but not turning up with the goods as promised, especially if there are others in the same boat as me. Steve also appears to be using 2 different surnames which sounds very suspect.

I went to the Southport cop shop and made a complaint. The senior constable agrees that it is a case of fraud and the CIB will be investigating him.

It appears he's not registered with the BSA and doesn't have an ABN. I went to Fair Trade and did a search of his business name and discovered it was only registered last October.

I've also spoken to the guy (Bill) who's out $5k and he's really upset about it. He's also going to make a complaint at the Southport cop shop and hopefully it will give our case more credit. He also tells me that Steve is still taking deposits for kitchens and shutters even though he's locked out of the factory and can't produce them. Steve also gave Bill a previous job as a reference which Bill followed up. The kitchen was done for a lady who's on her 22nd reno and says he was the worst tradesman she's come across.

In the meantime, i'm losing about $300pw in lost rent so i've bit the bullet and have got another guy to do the kitchen for me. Bundy, i would recommend a guy named Peter (0414 280 059) for your kitchens. This is the guy i'm now using who was referred to me by a happy customer. He's very competitive in his pricing as he has low overheads. He can do a 2 pack for about $300 extra.

 

[capitalist]

Alternatively, you can always hire some Samoans.....

Cheers,

Aceyducey

Hmmm... Samoans ey?

Another guy i spoke to says he's got some friends who are in a local bikie club [name witheld] based in Currumbin and they would be happy to sort him out. He was owed $7k by someone, so they torched the guys car after finding out it wasn't insured. Apparently they break legs for $200 but i'm not a vindictive person - i just want what is owed.

 

[dwyerfam]

Don't know if this will offend others, but to me this guy's actions rings bells and perhaps you could also add him to the list on this website:

http://www.ato.gov.au/corporate/pathway.asp?pc=001/001/008

(Tax evasion referral - no ABN is a worry, is he paying his GST? etc)

Danny D

 

[rodimus]

Few years ago i lent a new Indian friend $250 for his wedding. I didnt know him too well, but he was a friendly and nice guy, and we got along. Then one day he asked me to be a witness for his marriage certification thingy. On the day I went to sign as witness, he asked me to lend him the $250, as he claims that he doesnt have that much cash with him now, and will repay me back later that day. Oh well, I thought, its his wedding day, and he will return it to me later.

Then after that, he kept coming up with excuses, saying his uncle's cheque to him bounced, or his uncle is sending him more money from india blablabla. This went on for at least 2 - 3 months. I got so fed up that i went to his house, confrontation mode, and when he tried to come up with excuses, i said "stop that bs", or i am gonna tell his new wife. I got $100 back that day.

Then when he still delayed twice on the remainder, I went to his house with my BIG friend who looks like a mafia guy. He didnt have money, and he suggested we hold his hi-fi player for a while until he comes up with the rest.

The next time we went to his house, he moved house.

 

[Aceyducey]

Then when he still delayed twice on the remainder, I went to his house with my BIG friend who looks like a mafia guy. He didnt have money, and he suggested we hold his hi-fi player for a while until he comes up with the rest.

Rodimus,

Was the Hi-Fi system any good?

Cheers,

Aceyducey

 

[rodimus]

Well, its not the quality that I would use. I didnt really want that hi-fi, cos I knew the value will be only around $65. But as my friend said, $65 is better than $0!

Now as i think back it was a learning experience, also very funny experience. Its good to know some friends who looks extremely strong and BIG like a wrestler, while he's a friendly guy, but when he looks at you, it looks as if he's going to KILL you.

 

[Olly]

You may like to list this on -

http://www.notgoodenough.com/ an aussie site where you can air your gripes about aussie businesses.

They will intervene for you which may or may not help, but at best you will be warning others about this guy/company.

Good luck
Olly

 

[JoannaK]

hehehe...i saw an article about "not good enough" on a current affair the other night.....they may not be as impartial as they appear to be....

 

[Olly]

hehehe...i saw an article about "not good enough" on a current affair the other night.....they may not be as impartial as they appear to be....

Um, thanks (I think ). I'm disappointed now - wished I'd have seen that article. Thought there was finally someone out there who'd go to bat for the little guy. I did put one friend on to them and they did help her so it/they work sometimes.................

Olly

 

[Qld's007]

Just a quick question.

I assume you signed a BSA Minor Works Contract with this fellow.

If so wondered why you paid him more than the recommended 20% deposit.

 

[Lplate]

Capitalist,
I think Gill Bates' point should be followed up.

I think it is within the BSA's jurisdiction. This fellow should be licenced (with the BSA) and as I understand it there should have been a contract because the work exceeded $3000.

As a priority, the BSA is trying to weed out those who fail financially; do not have a current licence and those who do not complete a contract where required.

Even if I'm wrong on any of the above points, it costs you nil to complete the complaint form on the BSA site. What prevents you from taking that action?
cheers
Lplate

 

[capitalist]

No this guy isn't registered with the BSA

I spoke to him yesterday and he says he will deliver the kitchen next week... he's been saying this sort of thing since November 2003, so i'm not holding my breath.

If i don't get it next week, i'll be going to the Small Claims, reporting him to the BSA, the ATO and anyone else who might be interested in his business practise.

I can't wait any longer as i'm losing potential rent with the unit remaining vacant.