Kiva - helping others via micro-credit

Wow we have been busy little Kiva lenders :)

Impact of Fans of Somersoft Property Investing ForumStatistic Name Fans of Somersoft Property Investing Forum
Number of Team Members 20
Number of Loans 207
Number of Loans per Member 10.35
Total Amount Loaned $5,550.00


Good on us :)

I just loaned to a man who wants to expand his taxi biz and another man who sells shoes. :)

So now people will be able to buy shoes and get a cab home in Azerbaijan :)
 
Hi Tracey,

I admire what you are doing though Kiva and I am interested to do some research on this. My husband and I have been planning to sponsor a child for our daughter's 5th birthday - someone, also 5, with whom she can communicate over the years through letter writing etc...and perhaps one day, we could even visit. But having read a bit of this thread I am wondering if there is a way to do something child and family oriented through Kiva?

Regards,
Mel
 
Done. Tracey, this charity is awesome. I wish I had have taken action when I first saw your thread.

I'm really looking forward to the updates and will send my own little email out to friends. :)

Cheers, JO
 
My husband and I have been planning to sponsor a child for our daughter's 5th birthday - someone, also 5, with whom she can communicate over the years through letter writing etc...and perhaps one day, we could even visit.
I think Kiva is a much better idea. :)

Whilst unquestionably well-intentioned, child sponsorship programs are really problematic. In what ways, you might ask? Well, the program either directs all the money to your target child, or it's distributed more widely for projects which benefit that child (eg funds from sponsoring a number of kids in a village are pooled to pay for a well).

The former leads to problems for siblings and neighbours who don't get sponsorship - ie getting sponsored is like winning Lotto - and the latter is more effective, but means that the "child" is really only being used to get our money. Charities know this, and they only do child sponsorship projects because they work; because the public is far more likely to be happy donating money for a particular child, than respond to an appeal for money to build wells in Africa. :( The shorter-term reaction (by charities) to this unfortunate fact is to continue child sponsorship, but actually direct a good portion of funds to community development (which is what the better child sponsorship organisations do). Ironically, many sponsors feel "jipped" when they learn that most money goes to community development rather than their individual child, even though it's universally agreed amongst charities that community development is far more effective. The longer-term solution is for we westerners to educate ourselves and focus on charities which are effective in alleviating poverty at the root rather than in making us feel good.

Just "giving" money also perpetuates a cycle of dependence on hand-outs. Your sponsorship money is quite often more than one of the parents' incomes. Why keep working a job when you can just take money from a wealthy Westerner? Then what happens when you can't afford to sponsor any more? Or when the child grows up and leaves home, and there's nobody "cute" to attract an income any more? Why would you limit your family size when each child can attract an adult salary into the household via sponsorship?

Anyway, hopefully I've convinced you that Kiva, or donations to community development projects if you wish to donate rather than lend (or provide more direct/timely assistance to alleviating suffering), are both far more effective and ethical than child sponsorship programs. See, for example, Child sponsorship: does it work? and Child Sponsorship: Criticisms and Problems.

No disrespect is intended to any who are fans of, or participate in, child sponsorship programs.
MissHoney said:
But having read a bit of this thread I am wondering if there is a way to do something child and family oriented through Kiva?
I've given my kids each a $25 loan a few times. I used my account, but they got to choose who we supported, and whenever there was an update, I sent it to them. When the money's all repaid, they get to choose another entrepeneur to support, so it's the "gift that keeps on giving". :)
Done. Tracey, this charity is awesome. I wish I had have taken action when I first saw your thread.

I'm really looking forward to the updates and will send my own little email out to friends. :)
Yay for Deb, handyandy and josko - welcome to our little group!
 
When the money's all repaid, they get to choose another entrepeneur to support, so it's the "gift that keeps on giving".

The "reinvestment"is what I like too. When I first joined Kiva it was my "new years resolution" to donate to one business each month for the first year. Since then I donate a new $25 once a quarter and the rest is reinvestment as loans get repaid. Now because I have so many loans out...I get enough for a new $25 loan very regularly.

I like to lend to businesses to grow rather than.. "XX has a bix doing YY and wants $$ to put a new room on his house" (This to me is not building business rather than a personal loan) If XX borrowed the money to buy more stock or a new vehicle to deliver more services...they will get the money for their reno out of the biz :)
 
Hi all,

I have a few issues with this and Kiva in particular. In doing research, I came across this organistion - GiveWell. They come from a investment fund background and apply the same rigourous vetting process to NGOs that fund managers apply to their investments. They have rather good criteria for vetting NGOs,

# Is there evidence that a charity's programs are effective? (Why do we look for proven programs?)
# Are a charity's programs cost-effective? (How do we use "cost-effectiveness" figures?)
# Can the charity productively use additional funds? (Why is scalability important?)
# Is the above information shared transparently?
- http://www.givewell.net/charities/top-charities



and they have a lot to say about Kiva. The summary is:

Kiva: commonly perceived as a way to (a) make interest-free loans to (b) entrepreneurs you personally select. In fact, it is neither. ...

We ultimately see a Kiva “loan” as a gift to a microfinance institution, and we have major concerns about supporting any but the most outstanding microfinance institutions as well as concerns about Kiva’s due diligence process specifically.
- http://blog.givewell.net/2009/12/28/celebrated-charities-that-we-dont-recommend/

There's been a good bit of discussion on the subject - http://blog.givewell.net/category/kiva/

OTOH, there is a microfinance organisation which is closer to passing GiveWell's due diligance - http://blog.givewell.net/2010/01/01/philanthropedias-report-on-microfinance/, although it's noted that there are still some issues.

The issue of ensuring that your donation goes to a reputable organisation on a program which actually makes a difference to the people it is trying to help is a big one. Please apply the same due diligance you would on buying a property to the subject.
 
The issue of ensuring that your donation goes to a reputable organisation on a program which actually makes a difference to the people it is trying to help is a big one. Please apply the same due diligance you would on buying a property to the subject.
I agree, and am reading through the information regarding Kiva. Thanks, Jas. I would be very embarrassed if I have been guilty of the very flaw which I was cautioning against (ie wanting to make a donation that makes you feel good, but isn't necessarily effective) :eek:, but I'll also attempt not to let that sway me when reading the material.

Fortunately I've had experience of admitting my mistakes. :D
 
I've read several - but not all - of those blogs.

If I may be so bold, the criticisms seem to revolve around these facts:

1) Many loans are disbursed to lenders before the Kiva lender chooses to make a loan. So you're actually reimbursing the microcredit organisation for a loan already made, rather than causing a loan to be initiated. (This is obvious if you look at the loan details; the "date funds disbursed" is often already past.)

2) Like child sponsorship, the Kiva model of microcredit relies on creating a connection between the donor and a particular individual, which is expensive and largely artificial (ie the borrower won't know that you are the one who's made the loan to them).

3) The loan repayment information is assumed, ie Kiva assumes that the borrower is repaying loans on schedule unless informed otherwise.

To me, all of these reflect that there's a trade-off necessary between creating the real nexus between borrower and lender, and being efficient (ie minimise expenses incurred in generating that connection).

I think that Kiva has the balance about right, and is pragmatic. The people that you "lend" to really did receive a microcredit loan for the terms specified. The only expense involved in connecting a lender to a borrower is that when loans officers take loan applications, they also take a photo and some details of the borrower, for posting on Kiva to get back the funds that they'll (usually) have already loaned to the borrower.

Delaying disbursement of funds until Kiva lenders have filled the loan, and requiring updates from each borrower to be posted on Kiva every time there's a repayment due, would both incur expense and reduce efficiency. (Does it make sense to incur a $30 expense to find out whether an $80 payment has been made on time?)

I think Kiva provides "enough" of a connection between borrower and lender for it to appeal to people and be successful in soliciting funds, but not so much that the costs of the connection become substantial relative to the size of the loan.

I think there are criticisms of Kiva, but many of them are from people who are even more idealistic than I am. :D I totally agree that the ideal model would be for people to just give freely, and say "spend it where it's most effective", without the need for feedback as to precisely how the money was spent. That's the most efficient model. But in the real world, that model isn't as successful; people simply don't give. :(

But thanks for opening up the debate, Jas. I still think Kiva's infinitely preferable to child sponsorship, which has the balance far too strongly swayed towards the "connection" rather than the "purpose of the funds" end of things. If Kiva is "exploiting" people to be the face of third-world poverty, they are at least adults who've freely chosen to participate, rather than children, and the funds are a loan (dignity-preserving) rather than a hand-out.
 
I agree with Tracey. My donations to Kiva and re-investment loans are given on the understanding I may not get the money back. I see it as a donation and whatever I have returned I reloan. I see it as a way to help people with dignity.

The updates are good but not essential, anyway we can give back to me is a bonus

Chris
 
Well- I for one got a warm fuzzy feeling and that was worth every cent!

I must admit I did not do as much research as I would have on a property but am confident in Tracey's due dillegence and her recommendation.

Good on you Trace! :)

Regards JO
 
I agree with Tracey. My donations to Kiva and re-investment loans are given on the understanding I may not get the money back. I see it as a donation and whatever I have returned I reloan. I see it as a way to help people with dignity.

The updates are good but not essential, anyway we can give back to me is a bonus

Chris

This is exactly how I view my loans too.
 
Thanks for bumping this. I saw your sig Tracey and printed the flyer. It's on my computer desk as a reminder for when I get home. I was wondering why there wasn't a Somersoft Group. Glad there is one. I'll certainly join up when I get home.

I have to speak up for sponsorship also though. Tracey I see where you are coming from and agree with you findings with regards to lots of organisations.

However-

I sponsor 2 children through Rotary. EVERY cent goes to the sponsor families. The families are in Bali and children are sponsored at a cost of only $110 a year tax deductable. This pays for uniforms, school fees, shoes, books etc. Any left over money goes to improving the schools (equipment, water wells etc). Visiting is encouraged and you get report cards and sometimes a letter from the child. As a frequent visitor to Bali I visit often.

Miss Honey if you are interested in sponsorship perhaps that would suit you. I'm not home yet but can post a link when (if) I get home. Stuck in Hong Kong. Sitting on the net trying to pass the night away.
 
I have just joined now and made my first loan last night to Sam in Cambodia to build and stock his pig pens.

I like that all the money I lent gets to the recipient - I also donated another couple of bucks for admin costs.

I hope that by bumping this thread up we might get a couple more members!
 
What a great idea! Found it through this site and joined the team straight away!

I like alot of aspects about this such as -

"Accountability: Loans encourage more accountability than donations where repayment is not expected."

Also as we have been travelling through South/ Central America over the last 5 months can really see the difference even $25 can create for people, especially those motivated to make a change.

Appreciate whoever first raised this on Somersoft, GREAT WORK! :)

Cheers
 
What a great idea! Found it through this site and joined the team straight away!

I like alot of aspects about this such as -

"Accountability: Loans encourage more accountability than donations where repayment is not expected."

Also as we have been travelling through South/ Central America over the last 5 months can really see the difference even $25 can create for people, especially those motivated to make a change.
Welcome to the team, d.one, and it's great to hear from your recent travelling experience that these loans really can make a difference. :)

We've made 30 loans in the last 6 weeks - now we're up to 261 loans. :)
 
Thanks to Ozperp for organising this - I've just joined and kept this thread bumping along. My first loan was in the "Housing" category :D

The latest team statistics are:
Team members: 28
Loans: 303
Loans per member: 10.8
Total amount loaned: $7950

Looking back through the thread we've nearly doubled the number of loans since October 2009. Good work all!
 
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