know it all,show off, tall poppy syndrome

[grossreal]

hi all
I have a very interesting question and it seems to be that I am not alone in asking the same.
where is the line in the sand between someone being very good at what he/she does, is a professional at doing it and achieves what they expect
and
a know it all,show off, and the tall poppy syndrome.
this has popped up in taking to a professional guy who's only real business is doing business he is main land chinese and dr, phd facbs but what he does is just opens doors and gets you to who and where you want to go.
(that to me is like finding the business equivalent of gold)
but his question to me was the same as above.
he has an office full of pictures of business and political people in his office in china but in pitt street here in sydney his office the walls and side tables are bare except the financial papers and is very interesting to me the very different ways that this know it all,show off and tall poppy even effects this level of business.
the question maybe seen as a unanswerable question but is some thing to reflect.
for me I don't have this show off, tall poppy, etc as I find it not helpfull to advance from a networking point of view ( hense I meet and need door openers or what I call lever pullers) but interested in others views.

 

[GIDDO]

Hi Lawrence,

I am a somewhat stunted and dried out POPPY, in comparison with many here, however I still find myself being a little careful at times when talking to people I know who do not invest.

I also have a friend who has a successful import business worth several millions. He takes great care not to flaunt his success. His work vehicle is one of those Russian built 1990 model 4wd things, faded paint n all.
His upmarket holden is at home in the garage all the time.

I hate the culture of glorification of failure that seems so prevalent here in Oz.

When someone asks how my business is going I would love to answer truthfully, and not risk jealous resentment.
I shouldn't care really should I? But I do.

 

[Chris.R_WA]

Know how you feel Giddo.

Even though I am relatively new to investing, we have done quite well so far (thanks Perth). The topic of investing (not just IP's, any asset class) still seems to be taboo within our social group, even though I know some of my friends invest in shares and do quite well also. Even for people who work in a banking/finance industry, if the subject of gearing into MF's is brought up - you can hear a pin drop...."So how about that Eagles game on the weekend guys"



Chris

 

[simonjulie]

Hi Grossreal
I recken there is a place for this type of person in my universe as they can be usefull to me as they have an ego to defend and so can be an effective tool when I am clear on what I am to gain from their involvement in a project.
Cheers
Simon

 

[Aceyducey]

I hate the culture of glorification of failure that seems so prevalent here in Oz.

I know how you feel Giddo - it even creeps into this forum from time to time.

Australians prefer to politely - or not so politely - ignore the success and achievements of others. Or cut them down brutally and then go pick a sports person who sleeps around, treats people disrespectfully and behaves like a total nong as 'their hero'.

That is, until the successful person is dead. Then they go the other way and cover them with glory.

This form of jealousy is one of my least favourite Australianisms and is also a major factor in why Australia doesn't do as well as it should globally (except in sport - which reinforces my point).

Success should be recognised and rewarded, not treated like a leper.

Cheers,

Aceyducey

PS: And I think it's deeply footed in our culture, taught from parents to kids and teachers to kids - don't make a big fuss out of winning that race as the other children might feel sad - or bash you up for 'showing them up' (aka: doing your best).

 

[Peter 14.7]

Gross Real and Acey posts both paint the same answer.

It is a cultural thing.

It would appear in China, for some businesspersons, it is important to show success by association hence the pictures. In Sydney by qualification, hence the legal documents on the wall.

But should we adopt the American succeed at all costs model? It has some flaws.

• Minimal to nil health care.
• Low base wage.
• Education for the wealthy or very, very gifted.
• Ignorance of other viewpoints.

Australia is a different culture and when I was younger, I did not understand why we did not celebrate success as much. Having been “poppy topped” a few too many times, I now adopt and recommend a low and relatively anonymous profile. Am I conditioned or less obnoxious?

I know I amd wiser and more caring of others situations. My success has not stopped by being quieter.

For those interested Wikipedia has the follwing great entyr:

Tall poppy syndrome (TPS) is a pejorative term used in Australia and New Zealand to describe what is seen as a levelling social attitude. Someone is said to be suffering from tall poppy syndrome when their assumption of a higher economic, social or political position attracts criticism, being perceived as presumptuous, attention seeking or without merit.

The term originates from accounts in Aristotle's Politics (Book 5, Chapter 10) and Livy's History of Rome, Book I. Aristotle wrote: "Periander advised Thrasybulus by cutting off the tops of the tallest ears of corn, meaning that he must always put out of the way the citizens who overtop the rest." In Livy's account, the Roman tyrant, Lucius Tarquinius Superbus, received a messenger from his son Sextus asking what he should do next in Gabii, since he had become all-powerful there. Rather than answering the messenger, Tarquinius went into his garden, took a stick, and symbolically swept it across his garden, thus cutting off the heads of the tallest poppies that were growing there. The messenger, tired of waiting for an answer, returned to Gabii and told Sextus what happened, who realised that his father wished him to put to death all the most eminent people of Gabii, which he then did.

A kind of reverse snobbery, this syndrome may have originated in Australasia as a rejection of the British class system. Immigrants to Australia and New Zealand often adopted an egalitarian attitude, viewing people as admirable for what they themselves could do and rejecting the notion that some people are "naturally" superior to their peers by right of birth.

This phenomenon is often misinterpreted by foreign observers as a resentment of others' success. For the majority of the population, however, the targets are those who are seen as taking themselves too seriously or flaunting their success without humility. Apparent cases of tall poppy syndrome can often be explained as resentment not of success but of snobbery and arrogance. Many Australasians have achieved success and wealth without attracting such hostility (e.g. Dick Smith, Ian Thorpe); they usually do so by remaining humble about their achievements and avoiding "lording" their success over others. Thus, Australians and New Zealanders are often self-deprecating, especially those in the public eye.

In modern Australasia, tall poppy syndrome is frequently invoked as an explanation when a public figure is on the receiving end of negative publicity — even if such publicity can be seen as a result of that person's own misconduct.
Belief in the strength of this cultural phenomenon, and the degree to which it represents a negative trait, is to some extent influenced by politics.

Conservative commentators, particularly city-based ones, often criticise Australians for their alleged desire to punish the successful. Sometimes, tall poppy syndrome is claimed to be linked to the concept of 'The Politics of Envy'. Critics of the tall poppy syndrome sometimes compare Australia unfavourably to the United States in this respect, in the belief that Americans generally appreciate the successful as an example to admire and attempt to emulate.

Some commentators have argued that tall poppy syndrome may well be a universal phenomenon, accentuated in some cultures. The concept of janteloven, or "Jante law", in Scandinavia is very similar. Similar phenomena are said to exist in Canada and the Netherlands. The Japanese proverb "The nail that sticks out gets hammered down" is particularly well known.

Some thoughts, Peter 14.7

 

[House_Keeper]

I think that the Australian attitude of looking down at people who are showing off is much healthier than what is happening in the U.S. (where showing off is everything) and the U.K. (still hanging on to its class system).

Every system has its advantages and disadvantages. I prefer the Australian way.

Cheers,

 

[yadreamin]

I watched an interview with Shane Dye [jockey] this week and he now lives in Hong Kong.
He made the comment that success is not money it is prestige.
The way he was putting himself across made me completly understand why he lives in H K and not Melbourne.
He is one tall poppy that would not only be cut down but he would be given a hefty dose of round up if he spoke and acted like that in Aus.

cheers yadreamin

ps. Acey your post is very relevant at this time in Aus.

 

[thefirstbruce]

yardreamin, saw that interview....Dye came across as a total rabbit......no sense of parental responsibility. no sense of commitment to a partner....when the going gets tough, go and find an 18 year old model to shack up with....how long did that marraige last that was based on Dye's sense of true love? was it 6 hours or something?

The guy's values suck.....and my guess is he'll be old and alone and lonely in years to come....


As for tall poppies, nothing wrong with them....as long as they have the intelligence and wisdom to realize how they really got wealthy and successful, and that

for those whom much is given, much is expected....

Some ppl think success equals intelligence and wisdom.....when in many cases it means being a scheming lying bullying cheat.....taking advantage of others....and adding nothing constructive to a country or its people....
i.e. HIH and Westpoint....

 

[Peter Parker]

Some ppl think success equals intelligence and wisdom.

And some go further than this, particularly, it seems, Americans.

At least in their books there seems to be much emphasis on 'character', 'integrity' and 'moral virtue' plus of course the 'winning friends and influencing people' and salesmanship.

The implication drawn seems to be that those who are not 'successful' (according to a certain definition) are of inferior character, less moral etc.

This is slightly different from the English who might once have regarded such 'lower orders' as ill-bred, hard-drinking, Irish etc (to be transported to Australia as soon as sufficient opportunity came up).

Opposite to Anglo-American aquisiteveness seems to be the Swedish word 'lagom' ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagom ) some intepretations of which indicate that being sufficiently well off is superior to being any richer.

Peter

 

[Pushka]

I think we are quite discriminatory about who we target, so for me it isnt about Tall Poppies at all!

For instance - Tennis Players - take Pat Cash, Lleyton Hewitt, Philippousis and Pat Rafter. For a variety of reasons, the first three, whilst very successful (well, maybe not the Scud!), are generally not highly regarded and will invoke the ire of the general community. Some would say this is tall poppy syndrome. Pat Rafter, arguably more successful, but presents as a wonderful guy and have never heard a bad thing about him. Cant argue tall poppy syndrome here!

Go through any walk of life and where you find that some are glorified and held in high regard, others, just as successful people are pilloried and you will find it isnt their success that is at issue, it is the way they present as people!

 

[lizzie]

i think pushka has it right ... we quite like our people being successful, as long as they have dignity and honesty of personality about it. some people that come to mind are pat rafter, nicole kidman, victor chang (decd), toni collette, geoffry rush, ricky ponting, grant hackett - to name a few.

they are very successful in their choosen field (and there are many many more) but they take their success gracioiusly and don't rub anyone's face in it. it is the big noting, and face rubbing, that australian's despise.

 

[aussierogue]

yep

I think very few people merit either a) being admired and b) being deplored.

Steve Irwin and LLeyton hewitt for example - the truth is somewhere in between. The croc hunter - lovely bloke, great big personality and an ability to entertain people, not the messiah though. Lleyton Hewitt - bit of a brat, come across as a bit of a bogan, says things off the cough, not the devil though...

Greg Norman is a funny example of how we judge people - the guy loses a few playoffs in major tournaments and is therefore seen as a loser by some people. these are the same people who would kill to have a single figure handicapp, would dream about being a touring proffessional, would never even contemplate being number one in the world for 10 years, earning along the way massive riches...

Same with footballers who some in the crowd call lazy!! Have you ever tried being a proffessional athlete??? Even the most talented wont make it if they are lazy...Usually it has to do with motivation, perspective etc. I thinks its healthy for an athlete to lose interest once theyve been on top aka pat rafter..more to life than the selfish pursuit of success...

 

[Simon]

I think very few people merit either a) being admired and b) being deplored.

I admire lots of people. More than a few are friends on here. I should make a better effort to let people know I admire them. I am sure they enjoy hearing it.

I don't deplore many people. Just one I can think of right now ...

 

[Pushka]

I wonder with Steve Irwin, how many of us would have heard of him if the American's hadnt fallen totally for his performance?

Also, while I admire Bindi's courage for her speech at the service, to me it sounded just like an 8 year old doing 'show and tell' at school. I just dont think she has come to grips with losing her Daddy, as opposed to losing a media star. I just wish that Manager would lay off the promotional side and let Terri, Bindi and Bob grieve for a Husband and Daddy in peace for 12 months and stop with the media interviews! Is that tall poppy syndrome? I dont think so, they just need to be left alone.

 

[simonjulie]

I wonder with Steve Irwin, how many of us would have heard of him if the American's hadnt fallen totally for his performance?

Also, while I admire Bindi's courage for her speech at the service, to me it sounded just like an 8 year old doing 'show and tell' at school. I just dont think she has come to grips with losing her Daddy, as opposed to losing a media star. I just wish that Manager would lay off the promotional side and let Terri, Bindi and Bob grieve for a Husband and Daddy in peace for 12 months and stop with the media interviews! Is that tall poppy syndrome? I dont think so, they just need to be left alone.

Interesting point. But why not milk it as far as they can so that they can buy back more wilderness with sympathetic dollars created from the media exposure. They are capitalist just like a lot of us on this forum. Now while emotions run high,the family have a real opportunity to do a lot more good for the planet with that money.
Isn't that what Steve wanted. Good on you Bindi.
Simon

 

[Pushka]

Because she is an 8 year old who has lost her dad - forever! That is such a catastrophic event in a child's life, and while I agree that conservation needs all the help it can get, is it really up to a grieving 8 year old to do it? I just dont think that she is in the best position, at this time, to truly evaluate what she needs right now, and her mother is (naturally) basically shell shocked at what has happened. And so maybe others are making the decisions that arent in their personal best interests.

I didnt really have an opinion about Steve Irwin for a crusader he was, I thought he was far too over the top for me to take much interest in him, but I am so saddened at his untimely death, for his children and wife. So I guess I place their needs higher than anything else. I just think they should all take time and grieve.

According to everyone, Steve was a great family man and adored his kids. Surely he would have wanted them to consider their needs above all else?

 

[simonjulie]

Re: Bindi Irwin

I agree Pushka however considering Steve, and to some extent Terri & Bindi, have spent so much time in front of cameras, perhaps the family (including Terri & Bindi) wanted to give Steve's many millions of fans some closure.

Now maybe the family will get some peace and quiet time to grieve.

Regards
Julie

 

[yadreamin]

l dont think they would have been left alone until they did do an interview, hope it doesnt turn into a circus. ...........

 

[lizzie]

i think the manager is doing all the interviews so that the family is not pestered to do so. i think it admirable of him during a time he is obviously grieving. i don't think the media would leave the family alone otherwise with so much international interest in steve.