Marriage in Trouble

[Perp]

sometimes people grow out of each other

once the fire has burned out then it just cant be rekindled again

With respect, I don't think that you are yet ready to make a successful marriage. Ditto those who believe that marriage is about finding their "soul mate" - this is a fundamentally flawed premise.

To my mind, the only legitimate reasons for ending a marriage (or "lifelong commitment other than a marriage") are abuse, infidelity, addiction, etc, which weren't apparent at the time of the marriage, and not automatically so even in those cases. And of course if only one person wants to stay in the marriage, then there's not much the other person can do about that.

But what is a "commitment" if not a promise to stay together, even when the "shine" goes off? And you absolutely can rekindle a relationship; it's a matter of choice. Once you've made a commitment, it doesn't matter who else you meet, or whether things are as exciting as they used to be, because you've made a commitment. If you've only made a promise to stay together when things are wonderful, then isn't that a meaningless promise? Who wouldn't stay together when things are fabulous? It's the commitment to do the hard work to keep things fabulous that's the meaningful bit.

And I'm with some of the more "old-fashioned" contributors on this score: I don't think that people should even consider having children together outside a marriage (or marriage-like life-long commitment). Having children together is at least as big a commitment to each other as getting married, and more important in its implications. If a couple without children "fall out of love" and decide this is an adequate reason to end the relationship, at least it's only themselves that are affected. But once you have children, I don't think you have the right to get out of the marriage so easily. Nor do you have the right to stay in the marriage and be miserable; once children are involved, you're morally obliged to work at staying in the marriage and being happy about it. Again, I'm not talking about cases of abuse, infidelity, addiction, etc, or where one partner is not willing to work things out.

A successful marriage is having the right attitude to the commitment you're making, understanding what that commitment entails (ie being able to imagine what it will be like when the "shine" wears off, and being prepared to work at that), and ensuring that your partner shares your views on the nature of the commitment that you're making.

I've been married 14 years, my parents 41 years, and my grandparents 67 years (and counting) - all happily. I'm constantly grateful for their example; they're not "lucky" (well, perhaps my grandparents are lucky to have lived so long ), they've all made a commitment and worked at it.

(Sorry if this seems like a "rant", I've been steering clear of the controversy but just can't help myself anymore! No disrespect to anybody intended.)

 

[skater]

i'm not sure i understand your question.

of course children require a committment -- don't breed 'em if you can't feed 'em.... but it doesn't mean i have to be married to breed.

Sheesh! Children require a bigger committment than marriage. If you haven't got the committment to enter into a marriage, then why the heck would you even consider having children.

 

[tubs]

I heard an interesting perspective on it the other day, actually from "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People" which I got on recommendation from someone else here (thanks). Got it from audible.com so I can listen in the car.

The author was saying you have to 'love' your husband/wife. And love is not a feeling, its a verb. Its something you 'do', not 'feel'. It certainly made me think.

 

[nomadic]

I would think that if you believe marriage and the sacrifices are too great a sacrifice then being a father might come as a big shock (should you ever decide to go down that road) as it IS a lifetime commitment.

That's debatable. I don't want to get married because i can't see myself being with the one person until the day i die. I like to meet different women and have relationships with them (short or long term). I believe you can have committment without the ceremony. As you know, marriage is the cause of divorce and it's common to see people in long term defacto relationships break up soon after they get married.

Sheesh! Children require a bigger committment than marriage. If you haven't got the committment to enter into a marriage, then why the heck would you even consider having children.

.... because i don't want to get married but it would still be nice to have some mini-me's running around in the world after i've left it. I think that's why people have children? Is it an ego thing? Accidental conception? Social pressure? Natural instinct? Whatever?

 

[skater]

As you know, marriage is the cause of divorce and it's common to see people in long term defacto relationships break up soon after they get married.

.... because i don't want to get married but it would still be nice to have some mini-me's running around in the world after i've left it. I think that's why people have children? Is it an ego thing? Accidental conception? Social pressure? Natural instinct? Whatever?

MARRIAGE IS MOST CERTAINLY NOT THE CAUSE OF DIVORCE. Of course you don't get divorce without marriage, but you certainly can have marriage without divorce.

And to think that the committment of having children is just "It will be nice to have some mini-me's" is just irresponsible. Children need to be nurtured, preferably from both parents. You don't just deposit sperm, come & visit occasionally & maybe contribute a little financially. It takes COMMITTMENT & a LOT of your time, for your children to develop into healthy, happy, well adjusted people.

 

[GoAnna!]

That's debatable. I don't want to get married because i can't see myself being with the one person until the day i die. I like to meet different women and have relationships with them (short or long term). I believe you can have committment without the ceremony. As you know, marriage is the cause of divorce and it's common to see people in long term defacto relationships break up soon after they get married. QUOTE]

I can only presume you are deliberatly misunderstanding me as others think that my viw on marriage is actually too slack I am not advocating marriage but I do think commitment is essential if you are going to take the huge step of creating another life. It is a huge responsibility and not something to be undertaken lightly. My point was that regardless of the duration of the relationship your role as father is lifelong. It is in my mind the one commitment that we cannot "undo". You can divorce, leave your job, sell the house but you will for the remainder fo your life be your child's father.

 

[GoAnna!]

IMO....I wouldn't go so far as to say "of course"....but then I'm an old fuddy duddy when it comes to that sort of thing.

What I choose for myself isn't necessarily everyone's choice. Doesn't make theirs wrong. Personally I believe in marriage before children for various reasons but have friends who have been together decades without marriage and who am I to say that are not committed ? I don't think belief in marriage makes you a fuddy duddy Daz

 

[Bantam Roosta]

It takes COMMITTMENT & a LOT of your time, for your children to develop into healthy, happy, well adjusted people.

Which is what seems to be lacking these days.

BR

 

[skater]

Which is what seems to be lacking these days.

BR

My point exactly. To many people these days see committment to their partner (whether married or not) & their children as optional. It should not be this way.

 

[nomadic]

MARRIAGE IS MOST CERTAINLY NOT THE CAUSE OF DIVORCE. Of course you don't get divorce without marriage, but you certainly can have marriage without divorce.

ok then, maybe marriage is just the leading cause of divorce

And to think that the committment of having children is just "It will be nice to have some mini-me's" is just irresponsible. Children need to be nurtured, preferably from both parents. You don't just deposit sperm, come & visit occasionally & maybe contribute a little financially. It takes COMMITTMENT & a LOT of your time, for your children to develop into healthy, happy, well adjusted people.

I don't see anything irresponsible about having some mini-me's running around the planet after i've left it.... maybe it's the same reason you had children?

PS: i think this thread is getting off topic.

 

[nomadic]

I can only presume you are deliberatly misunderstanding me as others think that my viw on marriage is actually too slack I am not advocating marriage but I do think commitment is essential if you are going to take the huge step of creating another life. It is a huge responsibility and not something to be undertaken lightly. My point was that regardless of the duration of the relationship your role as father is lifelong. It is in my mind the one commitment that we cannot "undo". You can divorce, leave your job, sell the house but you will for the remainder fo your life be your child's father.

i think we agree

 

[skater]

ok then, maybe marriage is just the leading cause of divorce

I don't see anything irresponsible about having some mini-me's running around the planet after i've left it.... maybe it's the same reason you had children?

PS: i think this thread is getting off topic.

I think you are trying to mince words.

By not committing to your partner, how can you provide a stable home life for your offspring. Sure, accidents happen & kids are born into situations that are less than perfect, but when conciously making the decision to breed, should you not be attempting to provide the ideal environment?

 

[nomadic]

I think you are trying to mince words.

By not committing to your partner, how can you provide a stable home life for your offspring. Sure, accidents happen & kids are born into situations that are less than perfect, but when conciously making the decision to breed, should you not be attempting to provide the ideal environment?

Haha, i never mince words. Skater, why did you have children? It wasn't so you could have a few mini-skaters running around? you thought earth needed more people on it? family pressure? biology? other? Reason i ask is that you can't dismiss my reasons as invalid without giving your own.

Of course you can have the best intentions and be committed to your partner when the decision is made to breed but sh1t happens and people grow apart, have affairs, fall out of love, die, get maimed, go walkabout etc etc....

I know of several women who want kids but don't want a partner for various reasons. The times they are a changin' and i think you'll find it's more acceptable to have single parent households these days. I know several women who want kids but don't want a partner.... they just want to be impregnated by someone and they've said they'll raise the kid on their own. Horses for courses.

 

[skater]

Haha, i never mince words. Skater, why did you have children? It wasn't so you could have a few mini-skaters running around? you thought earth needed more people on it? family pressure? biology? other? Reason i ask is that you can't dismiss my reasons as invalid without giving your own.

My decision to have children was based on the fact that I believed that myself & Hubby could provide a stable home life.

Of course you can have the best intentions and be committed to your partner when the decision is made to breed but sh1t happens and people grow apart, have affairs, fall out of love, die, get maimed, go walkabout etc etc....

But this is the point I am trying to make. You can't help it if someone gets killed, or where there is violence etc. But on the whole, why would you choose to breed if you were not prepared to make the committment to the other half of the parent involved. Growing apart, having affairs & falling out of love are choices you make. Nobody said marriage (or committment if not married) was easy, but if both of you are committed to the relationship it will work. Take a survey of all those you know in long term relationships. If they are honest, they will all tell you that there were times when it was hard, where one or even both felt they were growing apart, but they made the effort to work on it & are more than happy that they did. No relationship is flawless, but if BOTH parties are committed to each other it will work.

 

[Perp]

you can't dismiss my reasons as invalid without giving your own.

Of course you can have the best intentions and be committed to your partner when the decision is made to breed but sh1t happens and people grow apart, have affairs, fall out of love, die, get maimed, go walkabout etc etc....

One's reasons for wanting to have children are personal and beside the point; it's whether it's responsible to act on those desires that's at issue. If you think that it's OK to toss in the commitment of a marriage (or marriage-like committed relationship) for such flimsy reasons as "grow apart", "fall out of love", and "go walkabout", then how can you possibly expect to be able to demonstrate the commitment required to raise a child? You know, there will be days when your child won't be very lovable and interesting, either, and the child (God forbid) may be disabled, have severe behavioural problems, or have one or more of many other possible challenges. You don't even get to see your child before they're born, let alone "test drive" them, as so many people seem to think is necessary before marrying...

 

[sue78]

Ozperp...a mother's love (or father's ) for their children is unconditional. If a partner's love is the same both ways then it should last forever.

I think some people do take marriages too lightly. What are people gonna do next? divorce their mums and dads over a fight or something? whether you like she gave birth to you and she's your mum...and you patch up and get over it...that should be the case with husband's wife's..only one forever.

 

[Rainshadow]

I agree with Tubs, love is a decision not a feeling.

 

[Perp]

Any update for us, ice?

 

[pennyk]

my parents taught me alot about commitment in marraige.
When I was growing up, they had a fairly disastrous marraige. Not violent, but they used to fight all the time, and didn't seem to have anything in common. I used to wish they would divorce, but they stuck it out.
At some stage, after they had been married around 45 -50 years, something changed. They had been married for around 53 years when my father died, and they were so happy together for the last 5 years of marraige. They are not the sort of people who would talk about what happened etc, but for me it was a tremendous joy to see their love for each other blossom after so many difficult years. So, it certainly is possible for the spark to be reignited!!
To see their tenderness when my father was dying just washed away all the pain from watching them fight all through my teenage years. I'm really, really glad they stuck it out.
So, I always say it takes a while to get the hang of marraige - some people obviously more than others!
Pen

 

[Seaview]

Actually there is a lot of statistical evidence now comparing the effect of various family environments on children.

Guess what, results overwhelmingly show that children who have both a mother and father married to each other, and living in the same home, grow up to be much healthier and well adjusted adults than other options (ie. de facto, single parent, same sex parents etc).

Of course this is not to say that individual cases and circumstances may not vary or produce better results.

So, it seems that traditional families generally still produce the best results for kids, which may be another reason for not throwing away a perfectly normal (sometimes dysfunctional) marriage and making some lawyer richer.

Also, have you ever noticed how people who divorce often end up marrying someone very similar to their ex partner anyway. Except they are usually a lot poorer, thanks to the lawyers, and far more likely to divorce again: because 60 to 80% of 2nd and 3rd marriages end in divorce..... so why bother.

I have worked in a marriage healing charity for many years now, and seen lots of totally hopeless marriages turned completely around with a bit of effort, and a lot of patience, even when only one person wants to work on the marriage. So please don't believe the lie that yours is too hard to be fixed, because it probably ain't! Another statistic shows that the majority of folk who divorced, when asked later, state that they wish they had worked harder to save the marriage.

Ditto to all the good advice given in previous posts on how to do it. If I could add a few keypoints they would be:

# Forgiveness is essential (even when they are not sorry and don't deserve it. Forgiveness helps YOU more than it helps them). And don't ask why should you be the first one to say sorry, just do it. Eventually they will start responding (although for some genetic reason it is hard for the male of the species to say "sorry I was wwwwrrrrrroong..")

# Expectations (don't make them too high, even better don't have any - for when your partner fails to live up to them you set yourself up for ongoing disappointment. Also, your partner often perceives these expectations and deep down resents them, probably because expectations and unconditional love are mutually exclusive if you think about it). When you learn to accept and love your spouse unconditionally, it takes tremendous pressure off them to conform to your mould, and gives them the freedom and confidence to become the person they were meant to be. Then instead of only noticing the things they do wrong, you will start to notice some good things about them.

# Commitment. Your commitment to your partner should NOT depend on their behaviour, but upon your word "to love, honour and cherish till death do you part for better or worse". Such commitment (or loyalty) is a hard concept for western society to grasp.... so consider this example: if your kids or your own dear mother became an axe murderer, would you still love them and be committed to them? Hopefully yes, because they are FAMILY, although obviously it may not be safe to live in the same house if they really were axe murderers. Yet in this modern, self-serving western society we no longer include our spouses as family, but expect them to earn our loyalty by meeting our expectations. How sad, because the very place where our kids learn to be good husbands and wives is by watching us. How scary (and sobering) is that. No wonder the world is in such a mess.

# Have some fun, both together but also by yourself. This helps you realize that your partner is not the source of your identity and happiness, nor you theirs.

Hope this helps
Seaview