well that's 5 unskilled workers kept busy for about 5 minutes.
I doubt aussies could sway Chinese industry by much... as I read today, their annual population growth exceeds the total unemployed population of the US
More Labor economic incompetence
- Thread starter WinstonWolfe
- Start date
well that's 5 unskilled workers kept busy for about 5 minutes.
I doubt aussies could sway Chinese industry by much... as I read today, their annual population growth exceeds the total unemployed population of the US
hey dont laugh, there is some body or another looking at this at the moment, just do a google search.
Anway at the end of the day doesnt phase me much, the world is becoming like a global village, whether govts like it or not.
As soon as the government starts making these sought of 'social' cut backs, i will be a magician and hey presto, my money disapears from the reach of the australian government. Dam i missed my calling in life i should have been a magician, look at my left hand look at my left hand see it waving around.
if you 'true believers' will quit banging on about Whitlam being the best PM this country has ever had!
Na. Please tell me there is no one who thinks Whitlam was the best PM. I've never met anyone who said that. Surely everyone knows he was the worst, most incompetent and most nieve ever PM? I thought it was a common knowledge issue?
But 'little Gough' certainly looks to be using some of 'big Goughs' strategies.
See ya's.
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TC
I doubt that you'd hear too many in the country saying that Whitlam was 'the best' - my in-laws live in a country town and they've never met anyone there who has said that either. But in the cities, there are plenty who - still - believe that 'Gough is God'. Several of my (extended) family included .....
And you are spot on about 'little Gough' - back in 1974 we had the Khemlani Loans Affair which sent the country broke ..... now we just have Kevlani spending the surplus before he gets into the loans and sends the country broke!
Cheers
Lynn
I doubt that you'd hear too many in the country saying that Whitlam was 'the best' - my in-laws live in a country town and they've never met anyone there who has said that either. But in the cities, there are plenty who - still - believe that 'Gough is God'.
Several of my (extended) family included .....And you are spot on about 'little Gough' - back in 1974 we had the Khemlani Loans Affair which sent the country broke ..... now we just have Kevlani spending the surplus before he gets into the loans and sends the country broke!
Cheers
Lynn
Hey, Kevlani is another good name for our PM. Might start using that when I'm sick of 'little Gough'.
See ya's.
Is that the same Harvey Norman with Gerry Harvey in charge?
I heard him on the radio this morning urging everyone to 'buy Australian.' Is there anything in Harvey Norman stores made in Australia??!!
Plasmas, Xbox's, games, DVD Players, etc etc - none of that is Australian. Perhaps some of the furniture is, but that's about it. Seems a bit rich for him to be saying that.
It's my understanding these payments are made, not just by Australian Government, (whomever may be emcumbant), but by agreement and treaty with other (certain) governments.
So we pay our expat Aussies, USA, some of Europe, UK?? pays hers....so on, we could have made money on this.
Leave it with me, I will find out.
The money spent, for example, just from the stimulus package grants, it is my understanding that every dollar put into the Aussie economy by a person, no matter if it is tvs, dog food, goods and/or services, for every dollar put out there, it rips around the economy by 10.
I heard this from a robust economic debate on my beloved ABC radio, an interesting discussion about the value of money put into the economy, how each dollar can affect so many ways, and it was my understanding for each dollar it had a circulation/impact? affect tenfold, I would love to hear from someone knowledgeable in economics if I have understood that right?
So we pay our expat Aussies, USA, some of Europe, UK?? pays hers....so on, we could have made money on this.
Leave it with me, I will find out.
The money spent, for example, just from the stimulus package grants, it is my understanding that every dollar put into the Aussie economy by a person, no matter if it is tvs, dog food, goods and/or services, for every dollar put out there, it rips around the economy by 10.
I heard this from a robust economic debate on my beloved ABC radio, an interesting discussion about the value of money put into the economy, how each dollar can affect so many ways, and it was my understanding for each dollar it had a circulation/impact? affect tenfold, I would love to hear from someone knowledgeable in economics if I have understood that right?
Not sure how much money does snowball as it moves through the system, and it would be very hard to quantify anyway.
One things for sure though, the stimulous would snowball a lot more if it was placed in the secondary industries section, as in manufacturing and construction, than going into the tertiary industries like retail.
The money is at the end of the road in a cash handout, and would mostly end up in retail and at the pub. Some goes to the Chinese company that manufactures the plasma TV, some goes to Harvey norman and the share holders, and some gets pi$$ed up the wall at the pub. Putting this stimulous into infrastructure would have seen the money snowball a lot more, and still end up going into the tertiary industries like services and retail further up the cycle. Building infrastructure would have been a lot better and longer lasting way of spending 'OUR' money.
See ya's.
spot on. now is the time the government should be pulling all the "infrastructure works" out of the mothballs and away from the 'nth committee to actually create employment (i know there are several large projects in my area alone that are ready to go tomorrow but the government has refused to fund), then income is created, spending is created, taxes paid are created.
i just don't get why this current government can't get the blinkers off.
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was thinking this morning - rather than leaving a few million individuals to go and negotiate plasmas by themselves, it would probably have been far more effective for the Aus govt to negotiate directly with some factories in China - imagine the unit price you could get on say 15 million plasma TVs?! I reckon you could get it so low that you could get a fridge chucked in as well. How good would that be - every man woman and child in Oz would be entitled to a free 50" flat screen and a new fridge. We could then stimulate the economy by running a massive recycling program of old TVs and fridges, generating even more employment, not to mention the savings in greenhouse gases from all those inefficient fridges being crushed.
hehehhe.....I like that AP. maybe Rudd and Guillard could have negotiated the laptops (for every senior student in a public school) at the same time.
God the Chinese must think we are thick bogans.
lets solve the GFC issue and build a dam or four.
or we could re-kerb every road in Aus.
"it's a GFC Wrap'n'Cap Deal" - govt can wrap the fkers up in debt for years to come and the banks cap their mortgage rates at 4.75% regardless of what the cash rate is.
want fries with that?
or we could re-kerb every road in Aus.
"it's a GFC Wrap'n'Cap Deal" - govt can wrap the fkers up in debt for years to come and the banks cap their mortgage rates at 4.75% regardless of what the cash rate is.
want fries with that?
christ John - now i'm gonna have to place you on "ignore" because that's just making too much sense. think of the planning, red tape, DEP reports just for the recycling plants alone....
no - no, i'm sorry, the way out of a debt-binged spending-induced GFC coma is to spend more with other people's money - period.
you'll just have to listen to the experts. if you would once in a while you might see that they are helping working families. a liberal govt can sort out how to fix this. labor are just socialist caretakers, doing the best they can with the jedi-inspired "market forces". the GFC isn;t their fault, they're just reacting appropriately.
no. i've decided. independant, free thinking thought is just not acceptable. you're on "ignore". bluddy capitalist.
Some Clarification...
-*Australia does have reciprocal payment agreements with 22 other countries, the net benefit to us, (Australia), being/is 1 billion dollars.
-22 international pension agreements with most European countries, the US, Japan, Chile and Canada.
-This, incidently was passed by both parties, labor and liberals, years ago. It's nothing new.
The stimulus package "needed to be done" to get money into the economy, via the best way possible, "people" spending it. Infrastructure work/spending is a point, but too much of a delay, it needed to be done, and quickly, besides, there is infrastructure spending/plans going on, it's government business, keeping in mind, it is impossible to please people all of the time, decisions have to be made, regardless of if you are a lefty or conservative ..same old, same old... (at least here in Vic). Everyone has a differing opinion of what should be done, for whom, how and why and how much ...so on.
The libs differed with labor that the amount was too much, as is what happens in politics. Ying and yang, nothing new.
It all got voted in eventually, and with some Murray/Darling river concessions..
-Expat USA folk got the 600 dollar handout (George Bush Originated)...last year?
*Sourced: The Minister for Family and Community Services, Jenny Macklin.
-*Australia does have reciprocal payment agreements with 22 other countries, the net benefit to us, (Australia), being/is 1 billion dollars.
-22 international pension agreements with most European countries, the US, Japan, Chile and Canada.
-This, incidently was passed by both parties, labor and liberals, years ago. It's nothing new.
The stimulus package "needed to be done" to get money into the economy, via the best way possible, "people" spending it. Infrastructure work/spending is a point, but too much of a delay, it needed to be done, and quickly, besides, there is infrastructure spending/plans going on, it's government business, keeping in mind, it is impossible to please people all of the time, decisions have to be made, regardless of if you are a lefty or conservative ..same old, same old...
(at least here in Vic). Everyone has a differing opinion of what should be done, for whom, how and why and how much ...so on.The libs differed with labor that the amount was too much, as is what happens in politics. Ying and yang, nothing new.
It all got voted in eventually, and with some Murray/Darling river concessions..
-Expat USA folk got the 600 dollar handout (George Bush Originated)...last year?
*Sourced: The Minister for Family and Community Services, Jenny Macklin.
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Multiplier Effect..
Lefty:
TC:
Hmmm, probably learnt this in my basic economics 101, had just forgotten it perhaps:
It is called the Multiplier Effect, it is sort of the economie's equivalent of what goes around, comes around.
http://www.cnmi-guide.com/info/essays/economics/33.html
....and from this:
The Multiplier Effect Of Money Within The Commonwealth’s Economy
When you go to the store with part of your paycheck and spend $10, the
store operator may use a portion of that money to pay his rent. The land
lord receiving the rent spends part of his income on gasoline.
The service station operator also has expenses to meet such as payroll, utilities and the purchase of fuel stocks to replenish what he has sold.
Economist refer to this exchange of money and its circulation within the economy as the “multiplier effect.”
The multiplier operates on the principle that one individual’s expenditure is another individual’s income.
Eventually, money leaves the economy, often in the form of import purchases, vacations, gasoline and anything else purchased off island. Each time money changes hands within the economy it is known as a “round.” At some point a portion of the money is no longer circulating on the island and is “fugitive.”
The first round of expenditures might represent the actual expenses
related to the cost of doing business.
Round two estimates the subsequent distribution of these payments by the recipients of round one payments. For example, in the case of the various taxes paid to government, this factor has been estimated to be 0.5 which means that for every tax dollar paid to the government, fifty cents is returned directly into the economy in the form of wages and salaries, local purchases of supplies, etc.
In-as-much as the government has been maintaining a deficit account balance, it follows that all revenue obtained by the government is expended for operations and capital improvements. It has been assumed that the remaining fifty cents paid to the government in taxes is available to meet government interest payments, expenses associated with direct off island purchases, etc. These funds are not in direct circulation within the economy and are not considered as having a multiplier effect.
That brings us to the third round as government employees spend their
income and as venders meet their expenses and cost of sales to the
government and so on. Each level, or round, of expenditures induces further
consumption although at a reduced level.
Because the Commonwealth is a consumer oriented society and almost all consumption items are imported, the multiplier effect of monetary flows is not as pronounced as in the case of other areas that have the ability to substitute imports with locally produced goods and services.
Finally, one arrives at the fourth and weakest round of transfers within this economic model. For purposes of this representation we have elected not to go beyond a fourth round of currency flows to depict an ever diminishing impact which eventually results in all such funds being fugitive as they leave circulation within the island economy in the form of import purchases and other external payments."
....and so on.. this is from Micronesia isles Guam and so on, so it isn't specifically Oz orientated, but I liked the simple explanation, (for me).
It does go into calculus for those so inclined and gifted:
"It should be recognized that any measure of the multiplier effect
consists of an intricate combination of mathematical factors representing
induced expenditure activity within the economy with the factor at each
level, or round, descending in value. To avoid being overly optimistic,
and in maintaining a conservative approach, we have developed low,
(conservative) factors to develop even those high estimates presented. The
development of conservative estimates of the multiplier factors largely
negates the possibility of exaggerating the impact of the industry’s
contribution to the economy.
Appendix
* The Size of the Multiplier
The expenditure multiplier (M) equals 1 / (1-MPC) or M
= 1
1 - MPC
The higher the MPC means the larger the multiplier.
Example:
MPC Multiplier
9 /10 10
4 / 5 5
3 / 4 4
2 / 3 3
1 / 2 2
1 / 3 1.5
* Real World Significance of the Multiplier
The multiplier explains why small changes in spending can
induce much larger changes in output. The multiplier implies additional
spending will bring idle resources into production, leading to additional
real output rather than increased prices.
* Limits on the Multiplier
Leakages in the form of taxes and spending on imports will
reduce the size of the multiplier. It takes time for the multiplier to work.
A lack of idle resources dampens the multiplier effect
through an increase in the price level.
Three Main Points
* Changes in output, as well as changes in prices, play a role in the
macroeconomic adjustment process, particularly in the short run.
* The responsiveness of aggregate supply to changes in demand will
be directly related to the availability of unemployed resources.
* Fluctuations in aggregate demand are an important potential source
of business instability. "
Note, my copy and pasting the formula there has been a little detrimental.
An interesting article also:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a5F6FnEhTOcs
"Feb. 13 (Bloomberg) -- Australia’s A$42 billion ($28 billion) stimulus package may keep the nation from sliding into its first recession since 1991 by stoking consumer spending and building schools, roads and hospitals.
Winners from the package passed by the Senate today may include building material sellers Boral Ltd. and CSR Ltd., retailers David Jones Ltd. and home builder Devine Ltd., said Craig James, a senior economist at Commonwealth Bank of Australia.
The Treasury department forecasts Prime Minister Kevin Rudd’s stimulus plan will help Australia defy a global recession by creating 90,000 jobs and boosting consumer spending. Almost one third of the package includes cash handouts of as much as A$900 to low and middle-income earners.
“It’s a short, sharp shock to boost spending and kick- start activity,” said Commonwealth Bank’s James. “It’s not just handouts to individuals, it’s the fact you’re spreading dollars throughout the economy, and that gives you a multiplier effect.”
TC:
Actually the FHOG has ripped into regional Vic with passion, buyers, builders, just talking to builders and they are busy people.
It's fantastic, the regional FHOG is actually $29,000 for construction, and 17 or is it 19,000 thousand for already builts...anyway, it is being used.
Lefty:
TC:
Hmmm, probably learnt this in my basic economics 101, had just forgotten it perhaps:
It is called the Multiplier Effect, it is sort of the economie's equivalent of what goes around, comes around.
http://www.cnmi-guide.com/info/essays/economics/33.html
....and from this:
The Multiplier Effect Of Money Within The Commonwealth’s Economy
When you go to the store with part of your paycheck and spend $10, the
store operator may use a portion of that money to pay his rent. The land
lord receiving the rent spends part of his income on gasoline.
The service station operator also has expenses to meet such as payroll, utilities and the purchase of fuel stocks to replenish what he has sold.
Economist refer to this exchange of money and its circulation within the economy as the “multiplier effect.”
The multiplier operates on the principle that one individual’s expenditure is another individual’s income.
Eventually, money leaves the economy, often in the form of import purchases, vacations, gasoline and anything else purchased off island. Each time money changes hands within the economy it is known as a “round.” At some point a portion of the money is no longer circulating on the island and is “fugitive.”
The first round of expenditures might represent the actual expenses
related to the cost of doing business.
Round two estimates the subsequent distribution of these payments by the recipients of round one payments. For example, in the case of the various taxes paid to government, this factor has been estimated to be 0.5 which means that for every tax dollar paid to the government, fifty cents is returned directly into the economy in the form of wages and salaries, local purchases of supplies, etc.
In-as-much as the government has been maintaining a deficit account balance, it follows that all revenue obtained by the government is expended for operations and capital improvements. It has been assumed that the remaining fifty cents paid to the government in taxes is available to meet government interest payments, expenses associated with direct off island purchases, etc. These funds are not in direct circulation within the economy and are not considered as having a multiplier effect.
That brings us to the third round as government employees spend their
income and as venders meet their expenses and cost of sales to the
government and so on. Each level, or round, of expenditures induces further
consumption although at a reduced level.
Because the Commonwealth is a consumer oriented society and almost all consumption items are imported, the multiplier effect of monetary flows is not as pronounced as in the case of other areas that have the ability to substitute imports with locally produced goods and services.
Finally, one arrives at the fourth and weakest round of transfers within this economic model. For purposes of this representation we have elected not to go beyond a fourth round of currency flows to depict an ever diminishing impact which eventually results in all such funds being fugitive as they leave circulation within the island economy in the form of import purchases and other external payments."
....and so on.. this is from Micronesia isles Guam and so on, so it isn't specifically Oz orientated, but I liked the simple explanation, (for me).
It does go into calculus for those so inclined and gifted:
"It should be recognized that any measure of the multiplier effect
consists of an intricate combination of mathematical factors representing
induced expenditure activity within the economy with the factor at each
level, or round, descending in value. To avoid being overly optimistic,
and in maintaining a conservative approach, we have developed low,
(conservative) factors to develop even those high estimates presented. The
development of conservative estimates of the multiplier factors largely
negates the possibility of exaggerating the impact of the industry’s
contribution to the economy.
Appendix
* The Size of the Multiplier
The expenditure multiplier (M) equals 1 / (1-MPC) or M
= 1
1 - MPC
The higher the MPC means the larger the multiplier.
Example:
MPC Multiplier
9 /10 10
4 / 5 5
3 / 4 4
2 / 3 3
1 / 2 2
1 / 3 1.5
* Real World Significance of the Multiplier
The multiplier explains why small changes in spending can
induce much larger changes in output. The multiplier implies additional
spending will bring idle resources into production, leading to additional
real output rather than increased prices.
* Limits on the Multiplier
Leakages in the form of taxes and spending on imports will
reduce the size of the multiplier. It takes time for the multiplier to work.
A lack of idle resources dampens the multiplier effect
through an increase in the price level.
Three Main Points
* Changes in output, as well as changes in prices, play a role in the
macroeconomic adjustment process, particularly in the short run.
* The responsiveness of aggregate supply to changes in demand will
be directly related to the availability of unemployed resources.
* Fluctuations in aggregate demand are an important potential source
of business instability. "
Note, my copy and pasting the formula there has been a little detrimental.
An interesting article also:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a5F6FnEhTOcs
"Feb. 13 (Bloomberg) -- Australia’s A$42 billion ($28 billion) stimulus package may keep the nation from sliding into its first recession since 1991 by stoking consumer spending and building schools, roads and hospitals.
Winners from the package passed by the Senate today may include building material sellers Boral Ltd. and CSR Ltd., retailers David Jones Ltd. and home builder Devine Ltd., said Craig James, a senior economist at Commonwealth Bank of Australia.
The Treasury department forecasts Prime Minister Kevin Rudd’s stimulus plan will help Australia defy a global recession by creating 90,000 jobs and boosting consumer spending. Almost one third of the package includes cash handouts of as much as A$900 to low and middle-income earners.
“It’s a short, sharp shock to boost spending and kick- start activity,” said Commonwealth Bank’s James. “It’s not just handouts to individuals, it’s the fact you’re spreading dollars throughout the economy, and that gives you a multiplier effect.”
TC:
Actually the FHOG has ripped into regional Vic with passion, buyers, builders, just talking to builders and they are busy people.
It's fantastic, the regional FHOG is actually $29,000 for construction, and 17 or is it 19,000 thousand for already builts...anyway, it is being used.
before we get too excited let's keep our eyes on the road. we are blowing $42bn of real funds on - mostly - imported consumer junk.
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