Now all of you who said prices would never come down...

You've got to wonder if the IMF could find Australia on a world map

As I understand from previous studies, they typically take the median house price divided by the median salary to determine a multiple. I think the Australian multiple runs at about 8?

In isolation this is a an outrageously high number and one that does point to an unsustainable bubble.

What the report does not address is the counterweight of housing supply (or shortage in the case of Melbourne) and building cost.

Add in the vagaries of State and Fed Government policies on negative gearing, stamp duty and land supply and you may as well pack your crystal ball away forever.
 
So at the macro level we have:

  1. Increased wages (pay rises)
  2. Increased wages per household (workforce participation)
  3. Higher density households (increased wages per m2)
  4. Use of previous savings (or paying down previous principle off a loan - same thing)
  5. Increased debt per household
You missed investment growth... from their biggest investment, their PPOR. It went up by 7% last year (& the previous 50 yrs)... is that an investment ? The growth on a $300K PPOR would give an OO $21Kpa towards their next deposit, so after 10 yrs they could put down a $300K deposit on a more expensive PPOR ?

And also add inflation as a reason for house price growth.

Not sure if you consider these worthy of the list, but I can promise you that they do exist in our real world.
 
You missed investment growth... from their biggest investment, their PPOR. It went up by 7% last year (& the previous 50 yrs)... is that an investment ? The growth on a $300K PPOR would give an OO $21Kpa towards their next deposit, so after 10 yrs they could put down a $300K deposit on a more expensive PPOR ?

And also add inflation as a reason for house price growth.

Not sure if you consider these worthy of the list, but I can promise you that they do exist in our real world.

Inflation - indifferent to me as I tend to think in real dollars - we can put it in there though.

I can't add investment growth as number 6 to the list - it would be odd. I can't have a line item in there that explains price rises by listing price rises as a reason. Works at an individual level - granted - but not at a macro level which is what the list was about.
 
Becuase you're not an investor who borrows money to invest. Inflation acts on loans as well as assets.
Alex

My own situation has nothing to do with it.

The purpose of brainstorming a list was to put some macro fundamentals underneath current house prices. In that context inflation means nothing.
 
My own situation has nothing to do with it.

The purpose of brainstorming a list was to put some macro fundamentals underneath current house prices. In that context inflation means nothing.

And if your list doesn't actually have any bearing on the reality of housing prices? Do you really think the average joe blogs thinks about macro fundamentals when buying a house? Do you think that the average joe blogs thinks 'hey, my house appreciated by $100k, but inflation has been x% so I've actually only made $y'? Or 'I've made $100k on my property but it's all just from inflation so really, I haven't made anything'? Do you really think the ordinary people who make up the property market actually cares about anything on that list? If they don't care, how do you reckon that the list will be able to explain anything happening in the real world?

Keep sitting in your ivory tower trying to construct a rational model that will explain the behaviour of irrational humans. I'll just stay here on the streets and buy it up.

If you used leverage to invest, you would understand more about how this all actually works in real life. Your personal situation has EVERYTHING to do with this. You still don't get why you can't understand the market, why the market always seems to crazy to you. It's because you assume people and markets are rational. They're not, and the market will always surprise you because you ignore what is in fact the biggest driver of house prices in the long run: the human element.
Alex
 
I can't add investment growth as number 6 to the list - it would be odd. I can't have a line item in there that explains price rises by listing price rises as a reason. Works at an individual level - granted - but not at a macro level which is what the list was about.

How about a line item listing future price rises with previous price rises in existing investment as the reason. In a real world that is exactly what is happening.... this IS a real world list isn't it ?

Or if that doesn't quite fit in with your preconceived ideas then put realised tax-free capital gains from leveraged investment leading to larger deposits.

And don't you think the real world is 'odd' and therefore not a valid excuse to exclude one of the main reasons for price growth.
 
I can't add investment growth as number 6 to the list - it would be odd. I can't have a line item in there that explains price rises by listing price rises as a reason. Works at an individual level - granted - but not at a macro level which is what the list was about.

So you don't think people consider 'you know, if I don't buy now it might be more expensive next year' (especially during a bubble) or, over the long term, that people buy homes because they believe prices rise, as opposed to looking at the rational reality of 'is it more expensive to buy or rent?' And that this preference for buying, often in ignorance of the rental market (try to find a rational value or explanation for the concept of 'home'), becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Your macro population is made up of irrational individuals. Putting a bunch of irrational individual together doesn't suddenly make a rational whole, especially when the individuals all act individually. Homebuyers don't organise groups and ask 'what should we do to act rationally'.

Your statement 'that would be odd' pretty much sums up why you don't understand the market: people ARE odd!
Alex
 
You seem to be insisting on adding a reason for higher prices called "higher prices".

If this is the case we can declare it a bubble / ponzi scheme / pyramid scheme and just wait for the inevitable disaster.

I try to be more positive and hope that there are other things driving it. :eek:
 
You seem to be insisting on adding a reason for higher prices is higher prices.

If this is the case we can declare it a bubble / ponzi scheme / pyramid scheme and just wait for the inevitable disaster.

I try to be more positive and hope that there are other things driving it.

It IS a pyramid scheme. But pyramid schemes only fail when people stop believing in it. I don't see a time when people stop believing in buying their own home, only because there are to many irrational reasons for doing it. You do because you assume people are rational.
Alex
 
I wish people were that upfront with Amway ... :D

That hasn't collapsed either. Because people believe in it. Your average corporate structure is also a pyramid scheme, but that hasn't collapsed either. Because people believe in THAT, too.

Are we in danger of agreeing again?
Alex
 
You seem to be insisting on adding a reason for higher prices called "higher prices".
That what is happening in ourreal world, what's happening in your world ?

If this is the case we can declare it a bubble / ponzi scheme / pyramid scheme and just wait for the inevitable disaster.
I agree that this circular argument with a time dimension is a bit hard for some people to get their head around.

I try to be more positive and hope that there are other things driving it. :eek:
Have a look at the spreadsheet I posted above.... you'll see that wage growth has v. little effect on price growth.... it's price growth itself (coupled with demand) is the main driver of further price growth. As an economist I would expect you to understand demand (keep up with Jones) & ability to pay (larger deposits).

Another way of looking at it, is instead of owning, then rent & put the deposit into a highly geared low yielding investment and pay P&I on it. Would Mr Jones (if he chose to) be able to buy a significantly more expensive house after 10 yrs if he cashed his investment in tax-free ?
 
Have a look at the spreadsheet I posted above.... you'll see that wage growth has v. little effect on price growth.... it's price growth itself (coupled with demand) is the main driver of further price growth.
I agree with you. The fact it doesn't cause anybody concern is the "educational" part for me. Thanks for the discussion.
 
It IS a pyramid scheme. But pyramid schemes only fail when people stop believing in it. I don't see a time when people stop believing in buying their own home, only because there are to many irrational reasons for doing it. You do because you assume people are rational.
Alex

This is quite fascinating thanks alex.

Recently many people abandoned their belief in a different pyramid scheme based around the NASDAQ stock market index. By all accounts those that abandoned their belief earlier did somewhat better than those who did so later. Those who never believed did even better.

To continue to believe you'd have to still think that everybody else still believed, so I can't imagine how the end of the pyramid scheme would be predictable to anyone inside it.

Here's why people might stop believing.

I only need investments that cost less than one fifth of the price of the house I live in to generate cash income paid into my accounts that covers the rent. I'd need even less if I was only looking for the cash income the house would give me if I owned it ie. the rent minus the maintenance and rates. I have a great lifestyle and can save and invest more than half my income now that I effectively have no housing expense. So each year I can buy investments yielding half the rent I rent I pay. The recent share price falls have been cause for celebration in this household as we can buy more income for our investment dollar.

I don't believe. I am outside of the Ponzi process. But I do not live in a vacuum and friends, colleagues and relatives visit. They find it very hard to maintain their faith when they come and see how we live. We live in a far better house than colleagues on similar incomes, we have far lower expenses than they do and can save and safely invest far more.

The secret is already out. I am already profiting immensely from never having joined the scheme.

As you say it is an irrational pyramid scheme. Nothing stops people from noticing and once they notice, it is clear that they are better off being among the first out than among the last out.


So the rational and the irrational can coalesce as people both realise that they would be better off financially if they are among the early leavers of the pyramid scheme, and they see how much better off they can be, how much more house they can consume by using their capital efficiently and investing at high rates of return to rent at low rent yields.

You understand. Maybe you are not the only one?
 
Aunty Conic

With and address like that I can only assume you are an avid reader of that wily author of the "Intelligent investor"

Any interest in sharing your portfolio and wealth management strategy?

From a humble mattress stuffer
Greedy :)
 
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I only need investments that cost less than one fifth of the price of the house I live in to generate cash income paid into my accounts that covers the rent. I'd need even less if I was only looking for the cash income the house would give me if I owned it ie. the rent minus the maintenance and rates. I have a great lifestyle and can save and invest more than half my income now that I effectively have no housing expense.
Give or take 20% hasn't this trade off always been the case ? I don't think much has really changed recently.

The recent share price falls have been cause for celebration in this household as we can buy more income for our investment dollar.
Well done, there aren't many like you who are willing to take on that risk.

As you say it is an irrational pyramid scheme. Nothing stops people from noticing and once they notice, it is clear that they are better off being among the first out than among the last out.
I'd disagree about if it's better to be the first out or last out (ask some here who sold years ago).

I too am a market timer, but only on the buy side. My view is to buy when I see good value (& I agree good value may be appearing soon in IP & ASX). However, timing selling a lot more difficult.... it's hard to judge when irrational behaviour will end. So by buying quality assets & never selling avoids 50% of txn costs & CGT & also the need to get into debates about whether assets are overly expensive.

So the rational and the irrational can coalesce as people both realise that they would be better off financially if they are among the early leavers of the pyramid scheme, and they see how much better off they can be, how much more house they can consume by using their capital efficiently and investing at high rates of return to rent at low rent yields.
Rational & irrational coalescing ?..... Hmmm not sure about that. The irrational bit is OOs owning their own dirt, something they control, their tangible own piece of Australia, somewhere to park their plasma & how much more wealthy they feel after the recent price increases. You've invested the difference between rent & P&I, I'd say most wouldn't do that. Most OOs project the recent past into infinity and see their houses going up forever, why would they sell & invest elsewhere (not stocks.... haven't you heard they're going down to $0:eek:). Inertia is another one - most are too lazy to bother moving unless they have to. Stress - isn't moving the 3rd most stressful thing that can happen (after a family death & divorce). Prioritising - most put more effort into what's happening at the w/e, than planning the next 40 yrs of their life & never get around to it.

I'd say there is a miniscule part of the population who is smart enough, has sufficient motivation, investment skill & foresight and lack of desire to own to a PPOR to sell up, with the plan of either buying back later or renting forever!

Any particular demographic do you see doing this ? Possibly young, professional, single(?), no kids, little baggage ?
And what %age of the population do you see considering it as well as actually doing it ?
 
You're not going to find an ally in me, Conic. Property might be a pyramid scheme, but like most businesses, religions, governments and monetary systems, it's built on something people WANT to believe in. That means it'll continue. I'm going to keep buying.

If you're succeeding according to your own standards, great. I'm certainly not losing faith in property over the long term. If it comes down for a couple of years, great. I can buy more to ride the next wave.
Alex
 
Alex - How do you find time to drop 7000 posts on this site?
Two reasons:

1. He works for a bank, and we all know they're just blood-sucking parasites that don't do any "real" work, so he's got plenty of time on his hands. ;)

2. He types quickly, really really quickly...

:D

Michael
 
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