Planning Dilemma help please

[Dan]

Ok here's the situation.
Have a single fronted house in Bayside Melbourne that I've had a double storey extension drafted for. Have complied with most of the council regulations (eg 1.8m setback from boundary), extension starts 2 rooms back etc..
I went and showed all the neighbours the plans, no problems, most were happy to sign that they didn't object.
Here's the problem.
The heritage advisor from the council came out to have a look, and is not happy at the way the streetscape will be altered.
The guidleine states that it is PREFERABLE (doesn't say required) to have the double storey not visible from the other side of the street.
Now my side of the street is classifed heritage. The other side is not (not a main road either). The other side has double storey townhouses, flats, and other non heritage style buildings.
A few houses down on my side of the street has a double storey clearly visible that is about half a room back from the front. Next door is a large huge double storey converted hotel on the corner, and from the street you can see the double storey houses in the street behind. These points were not of concern to the heritage advisor (who only works in our council half a day a week!), and she said she will be writing a report recommending not to have an extension as proposed.
These are the four options available to me.
1. Lower the ceilings by at least 2 foot. This will mean the high 11ft ceilings in the existing victorian house will step down to 9ft at the rear.
2. Start the double storey further back (this will effectively lose a bedroom upstairs, and the land is pretty small as it is)
3. Build a pitched roof with no ceiling space, starting at 7ft on the walls angled up inside. (eg sloped ceilings)
4. Lodge the plan and appeal.

Am tossing between 1 and 3. Not sure if 4 is worth it.
Was hoping to contine the high ceilings as it would add to the appeal of this style house (i hate old houses with low ceilings, they look cheap.)
Which do you think will add the best value? Lower downstairs ceilings or sloped ceilings upstairs?
Bear in mind that even these drawn up might not match the heritage guidelines.
Or is it worth trying my luck with the appeals?
Any input appreciated, thanks!!

 

[Kristine..]

Dan

Your best friend in this situation is your camera.

Take photos of the whole street. Draw a grid map of the whole street - download the whole area from www.doi.vic.gov.au your municipality planning scheme, then use the graphic select tool, and copy just the locality you want into a Word file to incorporate into your submission.

In your application / submission, you need to address issues particularly relating to heritage, overlooking overseeing etc.

Mark the house numbers on the grid map, and run a text description similar to that in your post but with more detail.

Focus on issues such as:

Diversity of street scape eg converted hotel circa 1945, general 'hotel' style, dimensions, site coverage, impact on streetscape, colour scheme, car parking provisions, or

Californian bungalow circa 1925, additions to rear circa 1965,

Cement sheet cottage etc

Your aim is to demonstrate that there is no particular 'heritage' aspect to the street, and that precedent has been set by the close neighbours eg the hotel and the other two storey buildings.

The detail in your post here is good, elaborate a bit more and point out all the good features of your proposed building particularly those which will enhance the character of the street.

Try and get copies of the heritage classification for the street, and why it has earned this honour! It may be because of the gardens, fences, set back from the street, two or three interesting edwardians, or that Nellie Melba once had afternoon tea at No. 23!

Make your submission empathetic to the aims and objectives of the heritage study, including paint colours, vegetation (magnolias were 'big' post-war) or other points where you can comply.

You have obviously put together a well thought proposal. it may just take a couple of hours of creative writing to get it over the line.

Good luck

Kristine

PS The Heritage Study is a mandatory requirement, one which we will all have to get used to.

This is the Planning Schemes Online URL

http://www.doi.vic.gov.au/DOI/PSO/default.nsf/index.html?OpenPage&charset=iso-8859-1

 

[asy]

Wow, fantastic answer Kristine!

I was thinking almost the same thing while I was reading through Dan's post.

Dan, if you can prove to the council that what you want to do is not out of 'charachter' or has a precedence in the street, then they really can't argue...

You said the property has 2 street frontages? or is it just that it's visable from 2 streets, if so, don't forget to do the photo thing on that other street as well.

The more ammo the better. Look around, walk the blocks either side, about .5Km around the property is a good size. Prove precedence!!!

asy

 

[Dan]

Thanks for the great replies!!!

No, its not 2 street frontage, but the big subdivided ex hotel on the corner has a backyard adjacent my property, and so looking from my street you can see the double storeys behind through the empty backyard.

Only concern I have is that when the heritage advisor came out she specifically said that she will be lodging a report of all our discussions and therefore if the plans have not been changed before submitting they will likely be automatically rejected!

 

[Savanna100]

My question is...why weren't you informed of all the planning controls BEFORE you had the plans drawn up.........did you go along to Council for a pre-application meeting, obviously you knew about some of the setback controls before the designing started but didn't anyone tell you about the Heritage streescape listing and didn't your draughstman/architect check?????

This is very frustrating for both the person wanting the extension and the planner dealing with it (trust me, I know!!!!!)

Al;s, I find it a bit unusual that only one side of a street is listed. Why not just list individual houses in that case.

You must get hold of the streetscape listing and find out what the heritage significance is....like Kristine said.

You could go to VCAT, check on the fees invloved. My understanding is that you don't need a solicitor but can bring the action yourself.

Good luck

Savanna

 

[Jakk]

Originally posted by Savanna100

You could go to VCAT, check on the fees invloved. My understanding is that you don't need a solicitor but can bring the action yourself.

Good luck

Savanna

The fees to apply to VCAT is $200 from memory.
You dont need a solicitor, you can present your own case but make sure you have as much detail as possible on all surrounding properties, as Kristine said, take HEAPS of photos.

Spend some time and write up your case in report format, if you have never done one of these, there is some great books out there on report writing.

Don't leave anything to memory, detail everything in the report.
Remember you have to convince them that your development will not adversely affect the character of the neighbourhood.

I have had no experience with heritage overlays, but have been to VCAT so many times, that they are going to start charging me rent.

The last time, it didn't even get to a hearing, VCAT recommended we try this mediation session that they use where we met informally at VCAT and the whole situation was resolved, a couple of modifications were made to the development and the objectors were satified.

You would have thought the objectors could have showed their concerns to me prior to lodging objections with the council and would have saved a heap of time for everyone concerned.

Good Luck

regards

 

[Dan]

Savanna, I agree it is frustrating.
We had a meeting with one of the town planners (a bit of a clueless guy in fact) just to check how the plans were complying at an early stage.
This is when the draftsman learned all about the intricacies of the heritage system. The only main problem he identified was indeed the visibility from the street. That is when we decided to get the heritage advisor out to have a look, but as I said, she didn't even care about the diversity of the street, or the fact that the neighbours had no problem with seeing some of the second storey.
She simply said that the other houses were approved before the heritage guidelines, and that they don't factor into her decision, and if we don't make any changes then my plan will be basically automatically rejected based on her report.

In order to compy the draftsman has drawn 9ft ceilings in the rear and a raked 7ft roof for the second storey. This just makes the requirements for zero visibility from the street.

This is definately not what I want, but it sounds like I have no choice.
I am now hesitant about submitting a plan that I like, but is guaranteed to be rejected, or submitting a plan I don't particularly like but is more likely to succeed.
Very aggravating when the council cares more about semantics than quality of living sometimes.


Jakk, thanks for the info. Is the application the only fee you need to pay if representing yourself? What is the timeline like from the application of permit right up until VCAT has approved? Few months, longer?? Sounds like you've pushed the boundaries a few times...what has been your success rate with VCAT hearings?


Should I try my luck and submit my plan along with a detailed report like Kristine and Asy have suggested, or just go for what the council wants? My draftsman needs a decision..should I have her prepare a back up plan that I can submit later on if its gets rejected after my first try?

 

[Savanna100]

From my experience as a planner I can tell you that, if the heritage advisor has told you she will be writing her report in the manner you mentioned then "game over".......you will need to comply with her requirements and redesing.

Over the 7 years I was at a Council, I often ignored minor planning advice from other professionals and went ahead and recommended something for approval anyway....but never never did I ignore any heritage advice, it is usually taken very seriously and I have seen whole building proposals wiped out because of it.


Also, the planner is quite right, if something was constructed before a change in the rules, it generally carries no weight in future decisions. If the rules have changed to become stricter, this is what Council will follow.

Don't waste your money submitting something you know will be rejected, go and have another meeting eith Council and redesign your proposal.

Good luck

Savanna