So, what do you think might be in store for this years budget?

[dan c]

There is nothing to pay. Every student in Australia pays nothing and contributes nothing to get a degree. The HECS debt, a marvellous scheme, allows them to defer every single dollar of expense until they earn over $ 50K p.a.

There is no cost barrier to any student in the entire country.

I incurred a HECS debt after graduating with a 4 year degree. It got paid off in less than 12 months when I started working. No biggy.

Yep, agree entirely. HECS is a great system, you pay back your costs incurred only when you are earning over $53 odd grand.

Even then, it's only an extra couple of percent of your taxable income, at the lower levels. Someone earning $55k pays back $2200 a year. Forty bucks a week taken out by your employer.

Earn under the threshold and you don't pay anything. Make a voluntary payment and you get a discount.

 

[HotRod]

I dare say, starting incomes were quite a bit less in 1989 compared to today.

$1800pa then on a starting income of about $26K is about the same as my son's degree costing about $4500pa with a starting income of about $60K.

But I agree with Dazz.

University cost nothing for anybody who wants to go.

Once they get out and start earning an income, they can pay it back.

Seems quite fair.

What about the days of a free uni education.

What about people who did not go to uni?

They essentially missed out on $10K of govvie handouts.

What about people learning to become a commercial pilot. It would have cost them $30K back in the day (about $80K now).

It was all about person choices and costs back then, the same now. The goal posts have just been shifted.

However, people not going to uni still get no HECS and a pilot still pays $80K out of his own pocket.

But that is their choice.

 

[MarkB]

TL;DR - The tertiary education sector in Australia is bloated. We're heading down a path where you'll need a degree to be a barista [a person who makes coffee, not a lawyer].


I have no issue with HECS either.

And, from an economics perspective, user pays tends to be reasonably fair (there are exceptions to this, but as a general rule).

But, imo, HECS is just a small part of what I consider to be a much larger problem - and that problem is the economic model of our tertiary education system.

Back in the day (Pre Dawkins) you had a relatively small number of universities - the Go8, and some newer unis like GU, UNE, Newcastle, UoW, Macq, Deakin, Flinders, James Cook, Murdoch etc - and everyone else was an "Institute of Technology" (IT), a "College of Advanced Education" (CAE), an "Institute of Advanced Education" (IAE), etc.

And then Dawkins came along and they all converted into universities... QUT, USQ, CQU, SCU (first UNE-NR), CSU, UTS, UWS, UNISA, RMIT University, Curtin, etc

And instead of their being a demarcation (of sorts) between universities and "the rest" - all of a sudden they were all universities and all playing on the same field....

HECS + Dawkins = perfect combination of increased demand and increased supply.

And the sector boomed (some might say it got fat)....

How many MBAs are on offer now?
(Admittedly only a couple have any cache)

How many law schools does Australia now have?

And, over time, as successive governments have moved the sector more and more down the road of being market-based.... fees and enrollments have increased....

And, what has happened is what could be called "qualification inflation" (where more and more people are better educated - and the bar is raised constantly on entry qualifications).

My brother did his HSC in 1985. It was quite common for people to leave school at the end of Year 10 or Year 11 and do apprenticeships, or start work in a bank or whatever.... His cohort of HSC students was < 50.

I went to the same high school (HSC in 1993) and even though the overall size of the school had dropped since my brothers days - my HSC class was > 150.

Even in that 8 years a lot less kids left school. They stayed on and did their HSC even though most had no plans to ever go to university....

Degrees have become the norm.

Masters degrees are now extremely common (especially faux ones like the MTeach and MProfAcc).

The Law degree is in utter oversupply (afaik <50% of law grads ever practice).

And even the days of the LLB now seem numbered (a growing number of universities now instead offer the JD - maybe because it sounds better and they can charge more fees?)

As far back as 1998 I recall saying to my Labour Economics teacher at UNE that I thought the sector was in oversupply and that the "returns to education" (in financial terms) would fall.

Long story short....

And dare I say it... (and I have the benefit of a university education, so I appreciate the hypocrisy)

.... too many people go to university.

But... I don't know if it is possible to rewind that clock.

 

[Scott No Mates]

The hole in the HECS net still remains - run up a debt, run off overseas (brain drain) & write off the debt after several years.

Enforce the debt collection before they get out of the country.

Yes I have paid my fees (upfront) & no never never plan for post grad studies either (just self education).

I'd agree Mark, there are too many specialised degrees. My first gave me construction and project management but now thrre are const mgmt, proj mgmt, const economics, building surveying, facilities management, building services etc with a handful of graduates in each rather than the 50-60 with a B Building.

 

[HotRod]

The hole in the HECS net still remains - run up a debt, run off overseas (brain drain) & write off the debt after several years.

Enforce the debt collection before they get out of the country.

Yes I have paid my fees (upfront) & no never never plan for post grad studies either (just self education).

Sounds like an idea, but what's to stop some-one just saying they're heading OS for a holiday, but they are moving OS?

I thought with international tax treaties HECS could still be recovered.

 

[willair]

Clive Palmers got the right idea ,if he can use his own personal transport why can't the rest of the bureaucrats..

 

[Corey Batt]

Clive Palmers got the right idea ,if he can use his own personal transport why can't the rest of the bureaucrats..

A true representative of the 'Every Man", unlike that cigar smoking bourgeois Joe Hockey.

 

[cimbom]

The hole in the HECS net still remains - run up a debt, run off overseas (brain drain) & write off the debt after several years.

People wouldn't leave if the government didn't cut funding from universities, the CSIRO and other technical or research bodies. Most people leave to go overseas because there are no real job opportunities in their field in Australia. Even Greece has made a significant committment to the massive Human Brain Project but we haven't.

Unfortunately for conservative folk, you can't just cut spending to everything and expect the economy to do well. Everything you cut has a flow on cost and the cost of cutting funding to the above-mentioned institutions is less tax revenue going to the government and less benefits to industry (including further increased employment) from the products of the research.

 

[Corey Batt]

People wouldn't leave if the government didn't cut funding from universities, the CSIRO and other technical or research bodies. Most people leave to go overseas because there are no real job opportunities in their field in Australia. Even Greece has made a significant committment to the massive Human Brain Project but we haven't.

Unfortunately for conservative folk, you can't just cut spending to everything and expect the economy to do well. Everything you cut has a flow on cost and the cost of cutting funding to the above-mentioned institutions is less tax revenue going to the government and less benefits to industry (including further increased employment) from the products of the research.

Should we just not cut anything then and just increase everyone's taxes? That has a flow on affect too.

More jobs are in private pharma/R&D/tech than govt, so of all things shouldn't we be cutting the tax rate to encourage more international companies to setup shop in Australia to provide these jobs?

 

[Crabnet]

TL;DR - The tertiary education sector in Australia is bloated. We're heading down a path where you'll need a degree to be a barista [a person who makes coffee, not a lawyer].

And dare I say it... (and I have the benefit of a university education, so I appreciate the hypocrisy)

.... too many people go to university.

But... I don't know if it is possible to rewind that clock.

But that is a response to globalisation, with freer world trade and the 1.5 to 2 million manufacturing jobs that Australia has shed as we close down our manufacturing industry and import value added goods.
We have to store the unrequired youth workers somewhere, so we warehouse them in universities, training them up in hope of taking advantage of some future high tech Australian manufacturing industry.
They start work later looking forward to a career of horizontal job movement, with reduced working hours, while more and more people retire earlier.
Consequently we have more people relying on Government assistance before, during and at the end of their working lives. Also Government employment expands to soak up the unrequired manufacturing workers.

 

[cimbom]

My only issue is taxpayer funded arts degrees. It will be a cold day in hell before I support tax payer funded arts degrees which don't benefit society.

The arts don't benefit society? Did your head explode when you typed that?

Should we just not cut anything then and just increase everyone's taxes? That has a flow on affect too.

More jobs are in private pharma/R&D/tech than govt, so of all things shouldn't we be cutting the tax rate to encourage more international companies to setup shop in Australia to provide these jobs?

Private companies generally don't do the initial research as it's pretty expensive - they benefit in the later stages of the process. University funding is very important to get the ball rolling in many fields.

 

[Corey Batt]

The arts don't benefit society? Did your head explode when you typed that?




Private companies generally don't do the initial research as it's pretty expensive - they benefit in the later stages of the process. University funding is very important to get the ball rolling in many fields.

Why not provide tax rate exemptions/reduction for selected companies in need areas, such as cancer research/'green' energy, particularly if there is private funded research within universities.

Not everything has to be based on society scrambling for the public purse.

 

[Crabnet]

Why not provide tax rate exemptions/reduction for selected companies in need areas, such as cancer research/'green' energy, particularly if there is private funded research within universities.

Not everything has to be based on society scrambling for the public purse.

Well, Australia is not very good at funding startups, that's why a lot of our ideas get developed overseas.
Banks have a preference for lending to real estate rather than to risky businesses.

 

[Scott No Mates]

Why not provide tax rate exemptions/reduction for selected companies in need areas, such as cancer research/'green' energy...

And the nfp research foundations don't get these concessions already?

 

[Corey Batt]

Well, Australia is not very good at funding startups, that's why a lot of our ideas get developed overseas.
Banks have a preference for lending to real estate rather than to risky businesses.

Hence why you provide competitive company tax rates to encourage start ups to be based in Australia. Work within the global economy, instead of only thinking of Ozzie ozzie ozzie.

Why do you think Facebook located it's international headquarters in Ireland?

And the nfp research foundations don't get these concessions already?

I'm talking about the for profit sector. We're all so quick to doll out tax money, why not just provide an exemption instead? Lack of subsidy and results in benefit for those who achieve results, not a rent seeking subsistence model.

 

[Crabnet]

Hence why you provide competitive company tax rates to encourage start ups to be based in Australia. Work within the global economy, instead of only thinking of Ozzie ozzie ozzie.

Why do you think Facebook located it's international headquarters in Ireland?

To take advantage of profit shifting, while the world Governments try to work out a way of taxing them where the income is earned.
The startup funding was provided by a venture capitalist after it had got going. IIRC they were incorporated in the USA originally.

 

[Ideo]

Students will do what students do.... Protest. They have been doing it for decades this is nothing new
If people don't like it perhaps they should have a cup of tea, a Bex and a good lie down

I chose not to go to uni, but don't begrudge anyone that did. If we want a smarter country education is an important part of that.

My only issue is taxpayer funded arts degrees. It will be a cold day in hell before I support tax payer funded arts degrees which don't benefit society.

Quite a lot of people do arts degree to enable post-graduate study in certain fields.

E.g. Me. I did a BA in History and a Grad Dip in Planning. Took me 5 years in total, the last 3 working full time in the field, studying part time. The first 2 spent working in cafes to pay rent.

Or, I could have done a straight planning degree which would have taken... 5 years. With a number of arts electives. But I couldn't have gone on to do heritage consultancy as a sideline as I wouldn't have the proper qualifications to do so, which comes from an undergraduate history degree.

Or, how about those doing a combined arts/law degree? Is half of their degree worthless?

I reckon I contribute to society in a pretty positive way overall.

 

[Corey Batt]

Or, how about those doing a combined arts/law degree? Is half of their degree worthless?

Nah, I'd say it's 100% worthless.

 

[Scott No Mates]

What did the law graduate say to the engineering graduate?



"Do you want fries with that?"

 

[Beanie Girl]

Students don't pay their own way.

There is nothing to pay. Every student in Australia pays nothing and contributes nothing to get a degree. The HECS debt, a marvellous scheme, allows them to defer every single dollar of expense until they earn over $ 50K p.a. (HECs was introduced by a Labor government)

There is no cost barrier to any student in the entire country.

Therein lies the rub
Therein lies the lies

Posted 27 May 2014 by Courtney Sloane (NTEU National Office)

NTEU research released today shows the impact increased university fees will have on students.

The research also includes predictions of how far fees will rise under the new arrangements as announced in the federal budget, and the time it will take students to pay off these debts.

NTEU research released predicts that degrees such as engineering, law and dentistry could cost over $100,000, and medicine could rise to as much as $180,000. On average, the cost of degrees will more than double.

Jeannie Rea, NTEU National President said that the proposed changes to higher education will mean that entry on merit alone will be a thing of the past; it will only matter if you are able and willing to pay.

Are you trying to say that tertiary education should only be accessible to wealthy privileged students and those that can't pay for it should be denied an education?

I wish I wasn't so damn clairvoyant!

"Students will be saddled with enormous debts that will take years and years to pay off, and with higher interest rates than ever before," Rea said.

Higher fees when combined with the new market-determined interest rate, will take more than twice as long to pay back for some degrees. For graduates that take time out from the workforce to care for family members, HELP debts might not be paid off until they reach their late 50s.
.........

The NTEU is calling for greater public investment in Australian universities,

"If the Government is concerned about the sustainability and global competitiveness of our universities and research institutions, what is needed is greater public investment, not exorbitant student fees and debts. A first degree shouldn't cost a second mortgage," Rea concluded.

http://www.nteu.org.au/article/Medi...-degrees-and-loan-repayments-into-your--16334


"We will never tell Australians that the quality of their education depends on their capacity to pay.

Labor will vote against these cuts to university funding and student support.

Labor will not support a system of higher fees, bigger student debt, reduced access and greater inequality.

That is why the Prime Minister's $5 billion cuts to Higher education are so destructive.

This Prime Minister's cuts to higher education sell-out Australian genius and reject Australian potential.

Cuts that mark the end of Australia's fair and equitable higher education system.

Cuts that bring down the curtain on the Whitlam university legacy.

The legacy that gave Tony Abbott - and at least 12 members of his Cabinet the same opportunity.

An opportunity that they now seek to deny the next generation of young Australians".

Labor's Budget reply 2014​

In the end, the acid test of this Budget is its fairness and this Budget is extremely inequitable on many, many fronts.