Sydneys Second Airport.....

[Sim]

Looking at major cities in the region where they have built new airports away from the city area - most have done pretty well.

The top of the list that I have visited would have to be Hong Kong airport - in the middle of nowhere (although an entire city has built up nearby since the airport was constructed), serviced by a fast train from downtown - you can even check your bags in downtown, hop on the train and not have to worry about getting your bags to the airport!

Shanghai airport is a fair distance from downtown - they have the Maglev, although I think that's more gimmick than anything.

KL's airport is a fair way from anything, I was last there in 2000, not long after it was built, so I'm not aware of what infrastructure they've put in to support it since.

Shanghai still operates their old airport for domestic flights and possibly some shorter international flights.

Also consider the London example, where Heathrow services the major international airlines, while you get most of the smaller / cheaper airlines operating out of Gatwick instead.

A two-airport solution can work well if done right and I do think that SACL desperately need some competition - they act like the monopoly they are in my experience.

I say, work out how far you can get a fast train in an hour (doesn't even need to be a very fast train, unless the costs between say, 200kph and 300kph are not that different), then draw a circle around Sydney and work out where the cheapest place to build the airport would be including the required rail/road infrastructure to service it.

Please don't let them build a second airport without a railway line to it. That would be a very bad idea IMO.

Personally, I think somewhere between Sydney and Canberra with a very fast train heading in both directions could work well.

Where they terminate the VFT also matters - knowing Sydney's history, they'll only build as far as Camden or Campbelltown and you'll have to transfer to a horse and cart to get any further

I think Sydney's central station requires a major overhaul too - but that's probably wishful thinking, as is wishing for lift access to our local train station sometime this century

 

[depreciator]

That's one of the problems with the fast train idea. It might be fast till it hits the city outskirts, but I'm betting a train is not going to hurtle right into the city at 200 or 300 kph.

 

[pennyk]

Looking at major cities in the region where they have built new airports away from the city area - most have done pretty well.

I say, work out how far you can get a fast train in an hour (doesn't even need to be a very fast train, unless the costs between say, 200kph and 300kph are not that different), then draw a circle around Sydney and work out where the cheapest place to build the airport would be including the required rail/road infrastructure to service it.

Please don't let them build a second airport without a railway line to it. That would be a very bad idea IMO.

Personally, I think somewhere between Sydney and Canberra with a very fast train heading in both directions could work well.

Where they terminate the VFT also matters - knowing Sydney's history, they'll only build as far as Camden or Campbelltown and you'll have to transfer to a horse and cart to get any further

I think Sydney's central station requires a major overhaul too - but that's probably wishful thinking, as is wishing for lift access to our local train station sometime this century

Seoul, Narita and Osaka are other examples where the main airport is a LOOOONG way out of the city.

Your solution sounds so sensible Sim.... perhaps you could offer your services as a consultant!

I think we definitely need to get some power out of Sydney airports hands...

But I agree with Top Cropper.. I would go north of Sydney, rather than to Canberra. The airport is already on the south side, so to me it makes more sense to provide something north.

Perhaps we could do both and have 3 airports!! Sydney, Canberra and Newcastle, all connected to each other and to the city via a fast train service.......

I imagine we will at some stage........ probably when the NorthWest rail link is built!!

 

[Ideo]

I still like the idea of the Mangrove Mountain/Somersby area.

 

[Peter 14.7]

Ahh... the debate begins.

Which really is about WHAT the new airport is to serve?

A business commuter airport between the BRIS - SYD - MEL capitals? If so, the existing is the only option. I don't want tofly to regional Syd from VIC for day business trip.

A holiday airport, like Avalon Melbourne. Then Sydney Regional is ok. Put it where the people are. Lower airport landing fees to lower holiday costs.

A new International Gateway, then Canberra is viable. Coming from US or EUR do you really care about where you land initially? Noting Syd would still be an option. And don't forget that much of existing SYD to CAN traffic could go VFT as it would be as fast. Why not a few say in Canberra as tourist then VFT to Syd?

I do note Scott point that what happens when you hit the metro area of Syd.

The trouble is here, we don't plan BIG and act BIG. We care about everyone, when you cannot. So what.... if we get rid of curfew on SYD. Noisy yes but better use of existing infrastructure. Newerplans are quieter. etc..In almost all cases the airport was there first before the people. B

The only Pollie of late to act bold was Jeff Kennett in VIC and it cost him a short stay. Back on topic, do worry.

Peter 14.7

 

[recruit2]

Put it in bloody Canberra and then build the fast train link.

This would be a win win, because a decent transport link is already needed between the business capital and the government capital.

We already have the internationally rated airport in Canberra!

Makes sense..

 

[sports fan]

i cant believe people and even suggesting canberra for an international airport i fly there regulary and at least 30% time if not more the flights are delayed significantly from taking off, end up circling for hours or get sent back because of the fog the traffic control will not let them land in fog - which is all the time in canberra.

maybe the rocket scientists proposing this airport should actually try using it before spending millions of taxpayers dollars on another white elephant

 

[barney8]

So did anyone actually confirm, where not to buy based on the second airport?(or where to buy actually...it should be a good employer of people).

Or is "Where not to buy" not allowed in the "Where to buy" forum.

I'd also be interested if there is a thread somewhere on "When to sell"

cheers

barney

 

[depreciator]

Barney, I reckon it's pretty clear from the thread that nobody (the politicians included) know where or when a second airport might get built. And even if they do decide on a spot, it could get overturned by a subsequent idea as is what happened with Badgery's Creek.
Scott

 

[Peter 14.7]

So did anyone actually confirm, where not to buy based on the second airport?(or where to buy actually...it should be a good employer of people).

Or is "Where not to buy" not allowed in the "Where to buy" forum.

I'd also be interested if there is a thread somewhere on "When to sell"

cheers

barney

Good Point.

An airport is major employer and right next it a Unit can be worth gold. Away a bit if where you get the noise. Like SYD where the noise is worst at Leichardt which kms away. At Mascot it probably is nothing.

Another good Point re fog at Canberra.

In the end...

In AUS we are still only 2 main players, ( I count Jetstar and Qantas as one) a pop of 22M, surrounded by a lot of water and small populations. We are not France or UK where commuter airports survive on sheer volume.

I predict they will extend SYD to longer hours and suck it up.

Avalon is not real success in VIC.

Peter

 

[Graemsay]

Sim, London actually has five airports: Heathrow, Gatwick, City, Luton and Stanstead!

Heathrow is the main airport, but it's running close to capacity. Most long haul flights leave from there, though some leave from Gatwick. Luton and Stanstead are smaller, and tend to be used by budget carriers. (Think Tiger Airways.)

The City airport is in the Docklands, and is entirely used by shorthaul operators, but it's more expensive to fly there than from other places.

Heathrow is running out of capacity, and there are a number of options being considered. A third runway is being considered, but there's massive opposition to it from much of West London. Expanding Gatwick is the other serious option, but there are covenants preventing this for another ten or twenty years.

A more radical suggestion would be to develop Boris Island, an entirely new airport on reclaimed land in the Thames Estuary. (It's named after the current London mayor, who's the biggest supporter of the scheme.) But that brings about an entirely different set of objections.

The Green movement, meanwhile, objects to any of the above.

High speed rail would be an option, and I think that I've said before that I used to be able to get from Delft in the Netherlands to the centre of London in about the same time by train as I could flying. But that's largely because of having to get to and from the airport at each end.

That said, a British Intercity service would get from Sydney to Canberra in about two hours, and onto Melbourne in five and a half. A TGV (French high speed service) would cover Sydney to Melbourne in less than four hours.

 

[chrispy]

I use Stansted airport a lot when I am in the UK, as my family live within half an hour. I go to various European destinations including Malaga from there.

My sister has a house in the mountains outside Malaga - there are some photos in the gallery I downloaded a few years ago.

If I am going to Paris then I go by train, its easier and faster than waiting around at airports.

My biggest problem when flying into the UK is getting from Heathrow to the other side of London and in to Essex.

By train is a pain, lugging suitcases up and down stairs to get to the tube.

The Paddington Express is fine but expensive. To go from Heathrow to Essex costs me 41 pounds one way, when using the Paddington Express. It should take an hour and a half all up but very rarely is that possible, it has taken up to 5 hours when one or other of the lines is under repair or the power is out, etc.

The problem with using Melbourne's second airport is public transport. Plus if you park at one airport and the plane is cancelled and you have to fly to the other, its a nightmare trying to get to your car.

We need a train link from Tullamarine to Melbourne before putting in train lines to the the second airport at Avalon.

Chris

 

[recruit2]

Good point re: fog in Canberra. This affected me only the other day!

All arrivals cancelled and planes had to return to Sydney after almost touching down!