Tenant is a hoarder - what should I do?

[Jacque]

I'd move the tenant on and try to find someone a little less burdened by their possessions. I've seen quite a few hoarders homes and find them very very sad. One fellow kept boxes and packets, envelopes, cylinders etc from the mail "just in case" they could come in handy one day. They literally took up almost the entire floorspace of two bedrooms....
Best of luck with it all.

 

[brettc]

Someone commented that insurance wouldn't help - can you please explain.

The description of the property you have given and even the fact that you may be looking to get the tenant out would really need to be disclosed to any potential insurer as it may influence their decision whether to cover the property or not. Any insurance policy is based on there not being an existing problem at the time of taking it out nor there being circumstances that increases the probability of a claim. The way premiums are calculated essentially takes into account the probability of claims occurring to properties that are not considered to be an imminent risk at the time of taking out the policy.

Once you have cover in place, on the basis of no existing problems etc. then it becomes the insurer's risk as to whether a claim occurs.

 

[locko24]

....with drug money....

...run by the Greens...

 

[Perp]

Someone commented that insurance wouldn't help - can you please explain.

As explained, you can't take out insurance after you've already had an accident, which is effectively what you'd be trying to do if you want to be insured against the risks posed by this tenant.

We are currently renovating our other IP so the hoarder issue will have to wait a few weeks til we can physically get down there and inspect the inside for ourselves.

Why do you need to go - what is your PM doing? Why haven't they done an internal inspection for two years?

 

[marg4000]

I share Perp's concern about the lack of inspections.

Are you self managing (no mention of a PM in your posts)? If so, it is simply not good enough to go two years between internal inspections. Every 3-4 months should be the norm, as it is with most PMs. A drive by is all very well, but you must inspect inside as well, just to ensure there aren't any little problems festering away that may become big problems.

I would arrange an immediate inspection to ensure things aren't worse than you think.
Marg

 

[sports fan]

i would be giving the property manager an absolute shalacking.. when you have done that then give to his or her boss with both barrells aswell.. send them photos and ask why you should be responsible for their incompetence.. i would take it lying down since you pay them 5-7% of each weeks rent for not doing their job.. obviously you need to take some responsibity however they have some big questions to answer

 

[CHAOS]

Yes we do have a PM. Original PM kept changing REs but took her properties with her (Not sure how that worked). Then she left the current agency and were not told and were just given another PM.

2 years + - is when we personally inspected the property.

I will try to summarise this as briefly as I can

The tenant asked for the gutters to be cleaned out and we arranged this and at the same time we inspected the property inside. That was over 2 years ago.
That was went the tarps issue and lack of access arounf the property was an issue.
Spoke with Original PM at the RE office that day, follwed it up with a formal letter outlining the issues and what action she was goign to take. Received a phone call a few weeks later and was told all had been sorted.

I had a look at the property on google earth and wasn't pleased by what I could see so we went for a drive in April this year. It is a corner block with a vacant block beside it so we are able to have a fairly good look at the property. We were not impressed! The tarps and other structures were still attached to the house. The gardens / grass had not been maintained nor could it be maintained with all the stuff around the yard. I was not happy. We could actually see part of the gutter that was falling away. We went to the agents office but they shut at 12pm on a Sat.

So when I returned home I wrote a nice formal email and I attached a copy of the letter I had sent 2 years earlier about the same issue. I told them that while the issue was initially raised with the previous PM, she had joined their company bringing her portfolio of property and left them with it, therefore it is still there issue to resolve.

They responded by saying they would formally give the tenant 14 days to clean up the yard as per the Residential Tenancies Act and they would follow this up with an inspection.

I spoke to them about this not addressing the tarp issue, and the lack of access to the exterior of the house to do maintenance like cleaning gutters and I was told that there was nothing attched to the house.

A few weeks later I received notice that the tenant has complied and has cleaned up the yard.

To be blunt I don't believe they have done a thing. And becasue they take their management fees directly from the rent when it comes in - you can't hold payment until they do their job. And there is no -compensation for owners of properties where the property manager fails to manage their property.

At the moment we have a lot on our plate, and we can't address this for a few months realistically. But when our other project is complete I will be able to tackle this head on and follow it through. It will be a priority. So between now and then I thought I would get some feedback from others.

This has bought up an interesting side issue - that of the bond. The bond of four weeks rent paid 7 years ago will not cover 2 weeks rent let alone any damage today - so what exactly is the point of a bond if it doesn't increase along with the rent?

Sorry for a long post

 

[boomtown]

What town is the IP? Maybe someone here would volunteer to do a drive by.

 

[wylie]

I thought the bond could be increased in line with the value of four weeks' rent if the rent rises. I've never asked for a bond "top-up" but thought it was possible to ask for this to happen.

 

[weg]

What is the reason for no insurance?

Even if it were 6 weeks or a bigger bond, it wouldn't do you much good if the place was to go up in flames.

It appears this poor ol' IP has suffered serious neglect by you and the PM.

You need to take a bit more control of your investment affairs and change PM agency.

7 years is a long time to let a place look after itself.

 

[CHAOS]

Hi weg

That is what happens when novices buy real estate. We have always had buildings insurance but ignorantlly (to be honest) we didn't look into Landlord insurance. We have made lots and lots of mistakes in our property journey - however, we have decided not to dwell on those (or we would be depressed), obviously learn from them and make better decisons in the future.

Recently I have been reading as much as I can and also asking questions here. I was reading one particluar book which looked at the different levels of wealth and also the investor type levels - yes it put in perspective where we sit but it also told us a lot about our family/social circle (who are level 0 or 1 - live paycheck to pay check, think their home is an asset, don't save or invest, and are 'nay-sayers'). We are the odd ones out - and as one writer said "people who don't have money, don't like to talk about money" and we have found that to be true. Don't get me wrong, our mistakes are our own doing - we may have made less of them if we surrounded ourself with other like minded people and could talk about things.

 

[weg]

Not saying what i did to be critical, but to drive the point that you need to be a bit more pro active/assertive.

I would have lost patience (and faith) in the agency long ago and changed over, and made sure the problem WAS rectified.

The other thing is gum leaves accumulating in gutters. That can be another major problem that can damage a house - often once a year cleaning isn't enough if they come close to overhanging, or are large.

Hoarder homes are a fire risk.

Even with insurance, insurance companies would expect fire alarms to be checked regularly and be in order, and the PM to be doing their job.

Not overly hard stuff, but you just need to make sure the person you pay to do the job is doing it.

If I were you I'd probably be asking formites to recommend other PM's in the area, moreso than how to deal with the hoarder. That is the PM's job.

 

[kathryn d]

You need to get this sorted out NOW.
Have the fire inspector enter and have it declared uninhabitable and a fire hazzard, if you want them out now.

Do not fool around with this. It is a serious matter.

Small Claims Court to get money returned for PM's not managing your rental...they are only collecting rent.

 

[Ruff investment]

Personally I think that you are very unlikely to get insurance now.

Not getting insurance was very silly, but you can't blame that mistake on being a novice investor. If you buy a property through a bank as an investment, most banks will give you insurance or quotes and it is always suggested that you have landlord insurance. Then once you do list with a real estate agent, they also suggest landlord insurance and some provide some. But look at it this way, you have an extra $285 for every year that you didn't buy a landlord insurance. So now you have $570 extra in your pocket for clean up.

On the tenant issues and real estate issues.

Get consumer affairs involved. Gather their advice on the topic. You will probably find anyone at consumer affairs very helpful. These things do happen, and there is an appropriate way to deal with the situation. They may suggest that the tenant is removed, and that a valuer goes into the property and values all the items. Then you can remove all items of no value. Or they may in the first instance, work with the tenant and give him support to clean up. It is worth the phone call.

They can also offer you advice on what to do about the real estate agent not doing appropriate checks on the property. As it sounds like they haven't been doing their job properly, it may be possible to take the real estate to VCAT. Yet again, contact consumer affairs.

There are also seminars that consumer affairs run, to help those 'novice' investors understand being a landlord better. See http://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/news-and-events/events/landlords-free-information-sessions for when they do arise.

Best of luck.

 

[Dazz]

It appears this poor ol' IP has suffered serious neglect by you and the PM.

Jesus weg, that is a bit harsh.

I reckon the IP has suffered some serious neglect from the Tenant. If the Tenant was a diligent, clean old lady the property would be sparkling clean and CHAOS wouldn't be posting anything at all.

The PM isn't managing the property for sure.....but they aren't doing the damage.

The Owner isn't managing the PM, and isn't doing what any person in ultimate authority needs to do - hustle up those around and underneath them to ensure jobs are done.

Never accept a phone call from a PM to say that "yep, all those jobs have been done" and then leave it at that.

Condition reports, photos with dates on them....all the usual stuff.


What needs to happen is the following ;

• Tenant needs to go and get some mental help
• Owners need to clean up the filthy mess
• Owners need to get themselves some serious education
• Owners need to hustle up

Don't bother wasting your time trying to hold your PM accountable for any of this. The agency agreement you signed with them will cover their @$$ all the way.


Hustle hustle hustle is the name of the Owner's game in residential real estate.

 

[Mick and Andrea]

Hoarders in my experience will do anything to avoid moving.
1. They have too much junk to move.
2. They like stability and will do almost anything to avoid change.
So makes sense to me to bust rent up $40 over market value.
Why is it $40 under market rent in the first place? Would be one of my questions.

 

[possumcreek]

This needs to be dealt with urgently!! I can't help thinking if this house goes up in flames (as often happens over winter, especially with hoarders) even your current insurance wouldn't be worth the paper it is written on. Then you may have mortgage to pay with no home to show for it. Is what you are working on now really as important as that?

 

[boomtown]

Existing building insurance may be void as the property is not being properly cared for eg it is a fire trap.

Landlord insurance even if he had it would probably also be void because both PM and owner knew about the problem for a long time and did nothing about it.

 

[Perp]

This needs to be dealt with urgently!! I can't help thinking if this house goes up in flames (as often happens over winter, especially with hoarders) even your current insurance wouldn't be worth the paper it is written on. Then you may have mortgage to pay with no home to show for it. Is what you are working on now really as important as that?

Existing building insurance may be void as the property is not being properly cared for eg it is a fire trap.

I agree with both of these comments; you would probably find that even the insurance you have would be voided by the fact that you have a hoarding tenant who you're not actively managing.

I hear that you're busy, but at the very least, you need to find a few minutes to send a firm email or fax to the PM stating that you are concerned about the state of your property, and that you want photographs of every room, and you want to see copies of all notices and letters that have been issued to the tenant. If no notices have been issued thus far, then they're to issue any and all notices that you're legally able to issue today. If you have to give the tenant 21 days to clean up before issuing a notice of eviction, then make sure the PM follows up with an inspection on day 22, and a notice to leave if the issue hasn't been rectified. Even if the tenant digs their heels in and the process doesn't actually achieve much, you can at least tell your insurer - in the unfortunate event that you have a fire - that you were taking every possible action to remedy the situation, which may result in your coverage remaining valid. Ignoring things for longer almost certainly will nullify your coverage.

Some issues can be postponed until you have time / brainspace to deal with them; this one cannot be ignored for one more day.

 

[Dazz]

Excellent post from Perp.


The only thing I'd add to her post is, rather than rely on fax or email, I'd personally deliver the notice to your PM.


Whilst I was at it, I'd also personally deliver the notice to your Tenant as well.


When the **** hits the fan royally, the first thing the authorities say is "Was due notice given, and how was it given."


Make sure your notice is valid, stating everything from ;

• Landlord's full name
• Tenant's full name
• Full address of the Premises
• Term of the Lease
• Length of Tenure
• What exactly you are unhappy with
• What laws have been breached
• Timeframe for rectification
• Action to be taken if ignored

In terms of how notice was served, nothing beats saying "I personally handed the Notice to them."