The Big Bad Question.

[skater]

I'm not sure what I am.

Except for a few odd weddings & funerals I had never set foot in a Church before I met Hubby. He on the other hand grew up in a Catholic family & went to Church often.

As a couple we started to go to a local Church, where it was really all too much for me. I struggled on for some time, but a lot of the leaders seemed to be very hypocritical. There was immense pressure to "conform". By that I mean that you were meant to have your whole life revolve around Church. You were not Christian if you didn't go to Bible Study & say "praise the Lord" after almost every sentance. The pressure to Tithe was incredible & at nearly every second meeting there was a preacher from another Church whereby a second collection was taken up. We were told that it was God's law that you give a minimum of 10%, but the focus was on the word "minimum".

We moved on & started to go to another Church, where it was a little better, but I still struggled. The new Church had the same issues as the old Church, they just weren't as upfront as the old one.

Anyway these days we don't go at all. Hubby still believes, but I'm not so sure. I don't care what others believe, so long as they are nice people.

As for life after death, well, I think there is something (not sure what). My MIL "died" many years ago when Hubby was only young & was brought back. My own father served in WW2 & was transported all over Europe to places he had never seen before (not even in books), yet he knew his way around many of the places & had the feeling that he "had been there before". These 2 "normal" people who have had strange things happen tell me that there is more to this life than what we currently have.

 

[our obsession]

I am....I am......

*The universe seems wondrous to me, with or without God. It has powerful lines and uncompromising ways. Patience and time sit like sages on the planets, strong and impersonal. There is a stark beauty to all of this.*~~(Reallivepreacher)

I am a believer of stark beauty and wonder.

 

[stormy]

big bad question

hi blue card for me its easy to have faith i look around and everything i see cries design and where there is design there has to be a designer. but religion is a different matter its a money spinner and a means of control and guilty of heinous crimes but she will be held to account

 

[keithj]

My random thoughts...

Maybe we're genetically programmed to be religious/sheep - a couple of chiefs & lots of indians seems to be a good way of moving the human race forward.


Most organised religion seems to be about benefitting/indulging a chosen few while the masses get to feel good about making sacrifices.


Faith in some 'greater being' on the other hand seems to be based on lack of understanding of the world, it's scale & probability theory.


The ancient people didn't understand why the sun/moon moved around the sky.... and they worshipped it.....
along came some smart guys who worked out why, and so they were shown to be heathans.... oh & by the way I've got a better religion for you....

2000 yrs ago the bible was probably believable to most educated individuals. Today it has so many holes/contradictions in it that few today believe it was a factual record of events (although I am good friends with some who do believe every word). Scientific discoveries & better education since then has reduced the number of believers dramatically.


I was discussing religion, entropy, chaos theory & brownian motion with a v. smart guy recently - he eventually admitted that there were some things that were unknown & he couldn't help but suspect there was some greater being either hiding or controlling that unknown (eg pre-big bang). Possibly there's something in the human brain that craves a knowledge of its destiny. And the 'greater being' is that catch all answer.


The idea that design is present therefore there must be a designer - yes, but that designer is us & the universe. Imagine billions upon billions of random trial designs (DNA mutation), all but a few are crap & are discarded, the most suited to the environment are kept..... Darwin said it better - survival of the fittest.


Probability theory - most people don't understand probability - they attribute the 'greater being' to perfectly normal events. eg in a room of 50 people it's more than likely that 2 will share the same birthdate, 6 degrees of seperation for the entire 6B population. Cognitive bias kicks in and the 'greater being' is claimed to be responsible for such alleged coincidences.


Scale - most people can't imagine stuff as small as atoms or as big as galaxies and especially the quantities involved. Our galaxy contains billions of solar systems, and there are billions of galaxies in the universe - our solar system is unbelievably insignificant, and within that solar system each of our personal exististances had an unbelievably small chance of ever happening (there are millions of sperm & just one of them made it to that egg). And looking at the opposite end of the spectrum, how many all those billions of atoms that make up each one of us needs to be in a fairly specific arrangement to make us work properly - the likelyhood of that happening is mind-bogglingly small. Most brains can't comprehend such extremes and take the easy option of a 'greater being' organising it all for them.


Over the millenia religion has evolved to take advantage of/explain the bits that science currently can't explain adequately to the masses. Science is becoming more hugely more complex - 11 dimenions, string theory, DNA, inflation, wormholes, dark matter, ... I reckon science can't possibly explain it to the average brain and so religion is here to stay.


And finally whydoesgodhateamputees.com is an interesting resource.

 

[Brenda Irwin]

If asked to stand up and confess, then yes I am a Christian.
I hold a deep seated unshakable faith which I do not impose on others, nor do I display it by attending regular church services.

 

[nomadic]

Why do people have faith? Because they're scared that this is it and there could possibly be nothing else.


For those who are interested, there is a theory called the ‘tendency toward complexity’ and something which I read about recently.

The universe as we know it began in an expansion that scientists call the Big Bang. The first moments after that great expansion, the universe was like a rich soup made out of simple bits of things that were so simple that they were not even atoms yet.

As the universe expanded and cooled down, these very tiny bits of things came together to make particles which then came together to make the first of the atoms. Then the atoms came together to make molecules which then came together to make the first of the stars. Those first stars went through their cycles and exploded in a shower of new atoms. The new atoms came together to make more stars and planets. All the stuff we are made of came from those dying stars. We are made of stars, you and I.

None of these things, none of these processes, none of these ‘coming together’ actions are what one can describe as random events. The universe has a nature, and it is to combine and to build and to become more complex. It always does this. If the circumstances are right, bits of matter will always come together to make more complex arrangements.

This fact about the way that our universe works; this moving towards order, and towards combinations of these ordered things has a name. In the western science it is called “the tendency toward complexity” and it is the way the universe works.

The universe as we know it and from everything that we can learn about it has been getting always more complex since it began. It does this because that is its nature. The tendency toward complexity has carried the universe from almost perfect simplicity to the kind of complexity that we see around us, everywhere we look. It is always moving from the simple to the complex.

The universe is always doing this and has been doing this for about 15 billion years. In another billion years it will still be more complex than it is now. It is moving towards something. It is moving toward some kind of ultimate complexity. But we are all moving towards it – everything in the universe is moving towards it.

And this final complexity, that thing we are all moving to is called God. If you don’t like that word, God, call it the Ultimate Complexity.

 

[Shonnie]

Another atheist here.. 13 years of Catholic schooling led me down that path.

Considering Christianity, Islam etc. all stem from old Pagan religions, it's difficult to believe that any one of them are actually factual.

I would consider myself to be a spiritual athiest. I believe that the whole universe is based around vibrational energies interacting with eachother and that we all basically reap what we sow. If I keep my brain and thoughts happy and healthy, then good things will happen to me. I've found this to be incredibly true in the past few months especially!

Each to there own though - as long as no one forces beliefs down my throat I can be tolerant of everyone

 

[House_Keeper]

I was raised catholic but do not consider myself religious either.

I consider the bible, Buddhism, taoism and other key religions as a source of wisdom, not something destined to rule your life.

I only occasionally go to church. The repetition of the same rituals just bores me....

Religion is a very emotional topic for some. So I rarely bring up the topic.

Cheers,

 

[WinstonWolfe]

If I keep my brain and thoughts happy and healthy, then good things will happen to me. I've found this to be incredibly true in the past few months especially!

Not having happy thoughts must explain why Poland and France got invaded by Germany...and why Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years...and why Sudanese blacks have been slaughtered in the thousands....

 

[nomadic]

Another atheist here.. 13 years of Catholic schooling led me down that path.

Considering Christianity, Islam etc. all stem from old Pagan religions, it's difficult to believe that any one of them are actually factual.

I would consider myself to be a spiritual athiest. I believe that the whole universe is based around vibrational energies interacting with eachother and that we all basically reap what we sow. If I keep my brain and thoughts happy and healthy, then good things will happen to me. I've found this to be incredibly true in the past few months especially!

Each to there own though - as long as no one forces beliefs down my throat I can be tolerant of everyone

Same same. I forgot to mention that i went to a private school where the Sisters of Mercy banged on about Jesus etc for 12 years. It was a real turn off for me and i've since come to the conclusion that Buddhism is probably the only 'religion' that i can relate to.

 

[TheBacon]

Lots of opinions here. I am just incredibly impressed with the tolerance and kindness shown by all on this thread. It could so easily descend into madness because a lot of us have strong feelings for or against or other.

For the record I hate to consider myself 'religious', but am happy to be called a fundamentalist Christian

I cant for the life of me understand why someone would not believe what I believe, but apparently they do, so I accord them the same respect as I expect.

TB

 

[Aaron Sice]

I was thinking the same thing - what a very balanced and controlled response by all of you. thanks to you all for making this a good insight and not a bitchfest.

the reason i ask, is that one of my good business acquaintances who is an incredibly logical minded, scientifically based property developer and share market trader recently let it be known that he was a very serious fundamentalist christian.

now it kinda took me back a bit because this guy is THE LAST person on the planet you would think would be a man of "faith". this is man who takes nothing for granted, is incredibly calculating and can quote logic like Dr Spock. we got into a great discusion about faith versus science, omniscience versus freewill etc with the usual stalemate endings. to find that he can take no science, reason or logic into his world of faith - to me - made it seem as though he had a weakness. i told him this and he didn't bat an eyelid, and just said something like this. i will never EVER forget this conversation....

"...to not believe in something more merciful and powerful than you and to not aspire to be like that makes someone less of a human being - it makes you arrogant to think that you are all there is. eons upon eons of teachings have been handed to you in a book modified with the ages and you discard it because you think you know better than thousands of years of human teachings.

science is today to a fundamentalist is what the "new testament" was 1500 years ago to the Pope - some kind of trumped up revolution of ideas that will have worrying repercussions for non believers.

i may be wrong. i very well could be wrong. but science is trying to provide answers to the same questions that the bible is trying to answer as well. they're arguing the same point - what created the world?

do i believe that god created adam from mud? most certainly not. i believe that god created man in his own image, hence the "moulding something from clay" analogy.

it is not up to me to question "why" we were created, or even how. it is a waste of mental resources. i make the most of here and now in the belief that something good and righteous designed me to be the best that i can be, and to not take full advantage of that by wasting time and thought process dwelling in silly arguments about big bangs, carbon dating flaws, freewill etc is a slap in the face to idealogical function we were created for.

if you strive to be the smartest, bravest, kindest, most loyal, most compassionate and generous you can be, then you are in gods image.

whether you have faith or not...."

which made me think - i am all that. most educated people on the planet are like that. if i am in that image then why do i not have faith?

I cant for the life of me understand why someone would not believe what I believe, but apparently they do

so why do you believe?

 

[Amanda Huggnkis]

To thow a spanner in I'm a Jew so not a lot is relevant to me as the philosphy is very different. However I am a secular Jew and my ethics and values are drawn from Tora law and ethics. For traditional Jews and secular its all about Halaka or the walk of life. Living your life in an ethical way. We dont have dogma so its up to every Jew to live according to the Mitzvot (613 ethical laws) and to live a good life. That's it. From this basis I have extrapolated out for myself to philosphy and at my basis of philosphy is Jewish Ethics. I think when one frees themselves you are free to question 'what is a good life' there are many good books in the philosophy sections that debate all the good schools of ages who all have their own solutions. In the end Think, question, argue and find your own path because when what you are taught does not fit with what you feel...therin lies to roots of unhappiness. This should serve to begin the search to find your own truth.

 

[WinstonWolfe]

From this basis I have extrapolated out for myself to philosphy and at my basis of philosphy is Jewish Ethics. I think when one frees themselves you are free to question 'what is a good life' there are many good books in the philosophy sections that debate all the good schools of ages who all have their own solutions.

Hi Amanda

Man that's no Jewish first name....nor the surname I guess
Enjoyed your post.
Can you recommend a few books that you have been inspired by.
I have a lot of time for Jewish tradition in its sense of valuing the intellect.
But I'll balance that by saying I have respect for Christianity's tradition of valuing grace and compassion above intellect.

 

[ianvestor]

I'm not religious at all. No faith in anything. Everything is simply explained away with evolution and how the universe was formed. There is no afterlife, and I wish there was, but there aint. Make the most of life, because eternal nought is ahead.

I do wonder if the universe is teaming with life, or if life on this planet was just a trillion, trillion, trillion to one co-incidence of molecules and energy creating a microbe.

See ya's.

Forgive me topcropper, but you seem to have 100% undeniable faith, that there is absolutely without question, no afterlife.

To me, atheism is religion.

If I have to put myself in a box I guess it's agnosticism. I don't know how the universe works, and freely admit that I will probably never know.

Interestingly enough I have just finished the chapter in "Think and Grow Rich" called "Faith". It is basically covering the old saying "whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right". That's faith.

-Ian

 

[bernly]

I was christened as an infant and strive to be "religious" but my faith is really weak. I have a copy of "Desiderata" on the wall above my computer. For me it says it all. For those of you who don't know it and are interested, here it is:

DESIDERATA

Go placidly amid the noise and haste and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and ignorant; they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit. if you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter; for there will always be greater and lesser persons than yourself. Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.

Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time. Exercise caution in your business affairs; for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals; and everywhere life is full f heroism.

Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labours and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. be careful. Strive to be happy.

Cheers

 

[redwing]

I enjoyed the Davinci Code ;o)

Mate,

I still can't come to grips with the fact that there's no beginning or end to the universe and the below pic's are mind blowing to put our little planet in perspective, let alone contemplating the merits of the myriad of relegions

I tend to think of religion and the stories as a life-guide/books of rules for the people of the time

Buddism looks good...

 

[WinstonWolfe]

I have a new God.....and her name is Antares.........

 

[luce.rocks]

A small number of times in my life I have felt really powerfully moved by a force that I couldn't identify. So I have faith. I'm not sure what in, because these weren't moments where God revealed him/herself to me and said, "Hi, I'm God, I'm sentient, let me describe my nature to you and point you in the direction of the religion that got it right.". They were just moments that I realised there was something bigger than me, that I didn't understand, that was active in my life (at that moment).

If you're looking for a 'reason' that people believe in God, I wouldn't expect a neat little syllogism. I'd take a guess that a lot of people who have faith, have it because they felt it, not because they reasoned it. Except for creationists maybe...

 

[toony]

I was raised catholic. I did 13 yrs of catholic education. Now its my kids turn.

I dont go to church and i dont feel guilty.

My 8 yr old daughter came home from school last year and says "Singing brings me closer to god" Gee i had a laugh that day.