Toxic tap water in Australia

[Aaron Sice]

He doesn't.

And of course medical imaging uses Fluorine-18 based NaF, which is definitely not the stuff that gets added to drinking water when NaF is used.

that's the US public water supply - NOT what was initially proposed here and what the outcry was about.

unless we're getting US water pumped here?

i can't believe you just put up a wiki link to try to prove i don't know what i'm talking about....

fark me...

 

[HiEquity]

that's the US public water supply - NOT what was initially proposed here and what the outcry was about.

unless we're getting US water pumped here?

i can't believe you just put up a wiki link to try to prove i don't know what i'm talking about....

fark me...

Nice try Aaron - but you're still wrong.

What about the chemicals used in fluoridating water supplies? Are they safe?
The compounds most commonly used for fluoridating water are sodium fluoride and fluorosolicic acid, chosen because they dissolve completely in water and break down into harmless compounds, leaving none of the original chemical. Queensland's fluoridated towns (Townsville, Mareeba, Moranbah and Dalby) all use sodium fluoride, the same substance used in the fluoride tablets many of us took as children. When dissolved in water, it breaks down into harmless sodium and fluoride ions. Large cities often use fluorosolicic acid, which dissolves in water to produce harmless hydrogen ions, fluoride ions, silica and water. The fluoride ions in artificially fluoridated water are identical to those already found naturally in the water. The facts: In 2002, the UK's Medical Research Council noted concerns "related to the chemicals that are added during the fluoridation process, and to indirect effects such as increased leaching of lead from pipes and aluminium from cooking utensils and altered uptake or toxicity of these substances…" and found "no evidence for any significant health effects of this type…"

Large cities in Australia would be where most of us live?

And NaF for drinking water is still not NaF used for imaging as it of course requires a radioactive isotope to work, such as Fluorine-18.

But I'm sure you're still sure about those x-ray machines and the alumina industry...

 

[jaycee]

i'the illuminati - what a crock of **** if ever i heard it.

and that's exactly what we, I mean they, want you to think







(it's not paranoid when they're really after you)

 

[Aaron Sice]

oh FFS - here we go.

the problem is with institutionalised medical research being used as a basis for seeting the record, then something else being used entirely.

read what you posted and quoted - go on. ACTUALLY READ IT - especially the bit you bolded.

"often use"
"2002"
"UK Medical Research Council"
"no evidence of any significant health effects".

1) "often use" - but don't always use. Perth was proposed to use NaF and this was the problem until it was addressed.

2) 2002 - a decade ago? how about some up-to-date research? typical institutions. next we'll be hearing about the effects that toothbrushes had on the increases in life expectancy - from a report in the 1950s that is still indoctrinated dogma that stifles medical progress.

3) UK Research? Using Fluorosolicic Acid? As in, NOT what was proposed here in Perth, Western Australia.

4) define "significant effect"? as in, an effect that could happen but can be treated, so is insignificant? because that's how the Medical Schools of Australia see it.

5) Fluoride is a waste product of aluminium refinery.

*it's all well and good to sit there and poke fun at this but the dangers of fluoride in water is JUST as well documented as the ADA's endorsement of the crap*

 

[Nards]

sodium flouride is also used on sensitive X ray equipment for bone scans - funny the timing for push for flouridated water in Perth now we have a walk-thru x-ray machine here in our airport - no, i don't see 'just' a co-incidence here.

Hmm, I was pretty sure Perth water had been flourinated since the late 60's??

HHHmmmm.... maybe I should run out and telll my dentist and doctors they are wrong!

Statistically rates of tooth decay have decreased significantly since the introduction of flouride into the water system.

But I will be sure to go back and tell them all not to worry, that someone on the internet has told me that flouride is actually 'toxic' for my health!

I have had this problem with my children also - both of them, now 5 and 7, have serious dental problems and lack of enamel, apparently due to lack of fluoride (for the record, they have their teeth brushed twice a day , and have a low sugar, low 'white' carbs diet. My boy had to have crowns put on at age 3). We lived in the bush, tap water wasn't flourinated and the water was so "hard" and awful tasting we bought a you beaut 5-stage reverse osmosis filter and that is all we used, even for cooking - the worst thing we could do apparently. It seems a lot of country dentists are now recommending flouride supplementation, and water filters that dont filter out flouride. The kids are also told not to rinse after brushing (with kids low flouride toothpaste).

So, I dont think I buy the flouride is killing us thing, and regret now making my kids drink highly filtered water...

 

[HiEquity]

Hi Aaron

I'm not hear to prove Fluoride is only beneficial and completely harmless as we know it isn't. Fluorosis proves that.

What I will say though is that on the balance of evidence available to us it would appear fluoridating our drinking water is significantly less risky to the population than not.

It's very hard to prove something like this is harmless. Conversely it would be very easy to prove it is harmful, if there is evidence to that end.

I was more responding to these claims of yours...

there was no need for flouride in drinking water - never has been, really, especialy since the advent of toothpaste.

This is not true. It has been proven that much of the effectiveness of toothpaste for fluoride uptake requires you to swallow the toothpaste, which is not advisable for other reasons.

Fluoridated water provides benefits independent of toothpaste use, as proven by studies done in those towns with and without it (and the same amount of toothpaste use). Once swallowed it then gets stored in our teeth...

however, sodium flouride which is the ACTUAL fluoride type used in drinking water is a waste product of alumina refinement. the timing of the release of this product into America's waterways seems a little close to the timing of the emergnece of mass-scale aluminium use in the aviation industry.

You linked NaF and America here, which is untrue. You also stated NaF is the actual fluoride type used, when in Australia it mostly isn't.

As to the relevance of aviation or alumina, I have no idea. There are much easier ways to dispose of fluoride...

sodium flouride is also used on sensitive X ray equipment for bone scans - funny the timing for push for flouridated water in Perth now we have a walk-thru x-ray machine here in our airport - no, i don't see 'just' a co-incidence here.

Fluorine 18 NaF (used for PET scans - of no use for X-rays) is a radio isotope completely different to water fluoridation NaF based on Fluorine 19. So this is just not relevant at all, unless you're suggesting our friendly airport security guard will be using MRI at all in the near future?

NaF also blocks the receptors required to get calcium to our bones more effectively.

Really? That would no doubt result in a significant increase in fractures and osteoporosis problems across the population? Like the one we haven't seen over the last fifty years we have been fluoridating our water...

Not to mention any other ill effects...

 

[Blacky]

Holy crap - I have never heard so much hog wash in all my life.

I think more people need to travel to less fortunate parts of the world and see what the meaning of 'toxic' water really is.

If it is a conspiracy theory, maybe, just maybe the conspiracy is coming from people who are selling water filters & bottled water. By scaring the crap out of everyone, so you believe tap water is bad for you, so you buy water filters.

Did you know that if you fail to replace a carbon water filter regularly enough, algae will begin to grow in the filter, which WILL make you sick.

Drink up kids. You can do what many others can only dream of!

 

[HiEquity]

He doesn't.

BTW, looking back this wording was superficial and too harsh. I apologise - it has been a frustrating day...

 

[Graingrower]

toothpaste has more flouride in it per gram than tap water and would have a more direct effect on someone's teeth considering the time and effort toothpaste is exposed to teeth, rather than water idly sloshing past.

This is a simplistic view. Toothpaste is approx 1000ppm flouride and water ia approx 1ppm flouride. So 1 gram of Toothpaste would have the same flouride as 1 litre of water. The flouride doesn't reach your teeth only by contact, it is ingested, digested and processed by your body.

Why do people think that "manmade" is worse than natural. In nature water may contain between 0 and 200ppm of flouride. If you drink a lot of water with 200ppm of flouride you will probably die. If you don't have any flouride in your diet you will probably die too. There are lots of chemical elements that are essential for humans to live and anyone of these is toxic if you take in large quantities.

Soils in some parts of victoria are deficient in iodine. If you lived entirely on food from these areas you would have brain development problems. Science provides the answer in iodised salt and globalisation provides the answer in imported food. Natures answer was that people don't survive and/or thrive in these areas.

 

[Graingrower]

Rugrat, son #2 has the same problem, so his specialist childrens dentist and gastroenterologist must be wrong as well.

His problem was silent reflux however, that slowly started resolving from around 8yo.

There is/was a lot of 'visible' evidence of increased tooth decay where there is/was no fluoride in water, in the absence of a bad diet and habits.

My son has extra topical fluoride and both Dr. and dentist assure me it's safe.

I'd say they're more likely to be right that a bunch of people on a forum .

Does anyone have any thoughts on chlorinated water causing reflux.

Observation:I used to do a lot of sheep shearing, where you are bent over all day placing a lot of pressure on your guts. I have noticed that if I eat any fruit when I am shearing I get reflux. So I try to avoid tomato sandwiches and blueberry muffins (you get fed well when you are shearing and eat five meals a day). I still get bad reflux if I fill my water bottle from a town water supply rather than rainwater (drink and sweat an extra few litres a day when shearing). My simple solution was to give up shearing.

Is the chlorine in the town water causing reflux.

Theory:Chlorine is supposed to kill all the bugs in the water, why won't it also kill the bugs in your gut that digest your food?

 

[Sunfish]

Chlorine is a gas which boils of in the same way as the CO2 in your soft drink, but because there is so much less of it it is not noticeable and doesn't take long. There could be none left in your water bag nor any in a bottle which wasn't tightly sealed after a short time.

If someone were to say that drinking "sterile" water was no good for YOU then I could not debate that.

 

[Invest]

Thought you may like a little poem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ta5LQ3SOQb8&feature=related

 

[Graingrower]

Chlorine is a gas which boils of in the same way as the CO2 in your soft drink, but because there is so much less of it it is not noticeable and doesn't take long. There could be none left in your water bag nor any in a bottle which wasn't tightly sealed after a short time.

If someone were to say that drinking "sterile" water was no good for YOU then I could not debate that.

Maybe it's the good microbes in the rainwater then.

 

[Perp]

I think more people need to travel to less fortunate parts of the world and see what the meaning of 'toxic' water really is.

Oh, Blacky, you're singing my song! Don't people think it's just a bit precious to complain that our water may not be perfect, or that it may give them a 5% higher chance of breaking a bone in their 80s or whatever, when so many people don't have access to any potable water?

If it is a conspiracy theory, maybe, just maybe the conspiracy is coming from people who are selling water filters & bottled water. By scaring the crap out of everyone, so you believe tap water is bad for you, so you buy water filters.

Yes, I don't understand why skepticism isn't applied consistently. If the government and 99% of scientists say that adding something to the water supply is good for you, and give you a raft of double-blind, peer-reviewed studies supporting their position, a significant portion of the population will refuse to accept it as true.

Yet if an alternative health practitioner tells somebody that taking a new wonder preparation from the health food shop will "detox" their bodies, and one study suggests that it's at least "not false", they can't wait to tell everybody they know about this miracle!

We are so blessed in this country. We have a benevolent government (of whatever party, not the present one in particular), incredible access to top quality health care, ample safe and healthy food and water, quality housing, comprehensive education, a high degree of law and order, and a raft of other privileges. (But besides that, what have the Romans ever done for us? )

If I'm going to get outraged about a social injustice, I'm going to get passionate about the conditions of people in the third world, not poor Westerners having their fluoride levels regulated in the water supply. (And the level of fluoride in our water is lower than that found in nature in many parts of the world; we're simply ensuring a consistent safe exposure level, rather than adding something which doesn't exist in nature.)

And yes, I know it's not "either/or", that you can want people in the third world to have potable water and want us to have a perfect water supply (though how you achieve that when we can't agree on what "perfect" is, I have no idea). I just couldn't get outraged about it without feeling that I was being a bit - OK, a lot - too fastidious and entitled.

 

[Sunfish]

Maybe it's the good microbes in the rainwater then.

There will certainly be "life" in your tank water.

 

[our obsession]

Actually I am researching up on this 'fear' thing people can demonstrate, couple of really interesting books:

"Panicology: Two Statisticians Explain What’s Worth Worrying About (And What’s Not) in the 21st Century" (Skyhorse Publishing).....


"They take a hard look at the numbers, and basically measure what is worth our emotional fear and what just isn’t. Bird flu? Swine flu? Nuclear warfare? American obesity? Who is the biggest, baddest wolf of them all in a modern world filled with constant stories of terror, disease, natural disaster and general social mayhem?

In short, they say, bird flu, flying and terrorism might not be worth so much of your time. However, driving an automobile and global climate changes are probably worthy of your attention. The book also comes equipped with "A Skeptic's Toolkit" to help readers approach news with a greater sense of balance. The authors lay out buzz words to question and how to decipher surveys..."

From the LA Times review:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/booster_shots/2009/05/panicology.html

...and, Dan Gardner's:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/mar/09/society

Humanity has never had it so good. Most people around the world are better off and will live longer than their ancestors. If we could hold on to that perspective, we would all be much more relaxed. But we aren't relaxed. We are anxious and stressed. We are scared that bad things will happen to us: nuclear war, cancer, child abduction. As for keeping things in perspective, Homo sapiens just isn't cut out for it, as Dan Gardner explains in Risk: The Science and Politics of Fear.

If a history of man were written with proportionate space given to each stage of our development, Gardner tells us, we would be nomadic hunter-gatherers for 200 pages; there would then be one page of settled agrarian society. The modern world - everything that has happened in the last two centuries - would be a final paragraph.

But brain anatomy was fixed millennia ago. In other words, our poor troglodyte minds are simply not equipped to process the complexity of modern living, especially where risk is concerned.

It's really interesting reading about us, as humans, the post of risk adversity over in another thread on this forum got me thinking (again) the 'why'...I will go post it all in psychology later on when more time avails.

 

[ianvestor]

Statistically rates of tooth decay have decreased significantly since the introduction of flouride into the water system.

Well, statistically rates of smoking have decreased significantly since the introduction of fluoride into the water system.

Therefore fluoride is clearly bad news for the tobacco industry.

 

[Sunfish]

Therefore fluoride is clearly bad news for the tobacco industry.

Why would you object to that? I would think it's a big plus.

 

[tom32]

That would no doubt result in a significant increase in fractures and osteoporosis problems across the population? Like the one we haven't seen over the last fifty years we have been fluoridating our water...

Not to mention any other ill effects...

It wouldn't necessarily. What happens if the flouride increases the strength or has no harmfull effects on bones? It would both block some calcium reaching the bones as well as cause no increase in fractures etc.

this is a bit speculative but could one of the more learned individuals comment on this:

Thinking back to university chemistry flouride is highly reactive and would likely substitute for other chemicals to form compounds in the bones.

It is likely that we take flouride for the reason that by substituting other chemicals for flouride we end up with a stonger bone and teeth structure.

Injesting flouride would then indeed prevent as much calcium being absorbed by the bones as per Aarons suggestion as the flouride is takinig the place of calcium over time in the bone and teeth structures.

 

[Witzl]

ive been drinking sydney tap water (with flouride added) since i can remember. Never liked bottled water, unless it was an empty bottle filled with good old tap water.
Never drank filtered water.... yep i love tap water.

At almost 30, i have never broken a bone despite playing contact sports my entire life, have very strong and healthy teeth, havent had any major dental issues and seem pretty damn healthy all round.

Im quite happy we have flourided water over here. Doesnt seem to make anyone sick, and there are over 4 million people drinking the tap water here??