what bigger-than-ben-hur idea seems most plausible to you?

[Carol]

something very disturbing happened for me in the last couple of days.

I posed the proposition to my husband 'Wouldn't it be funny if the pope didn't believe that jesus was born without the help of a sperm and that he didn't really rise from the dead ?"

And my husband said " of course he wouldn't believe that!"

We had a heated discussion about the hypocricy of it all if that were true; my husband wasn't at all disturbed by the hypocricy issue but i sure was.

I then asked my friend who is a non-believer who was brought up as a catholic. She agreed - she thought it most unlikely that recent-day popes would truly believe the super-natural powers stuff regarding jesus - but that they were locked into a tradition of that belief so they had to go along with it - and she also wasn't shocked by the hypocricy of it all.

Then I asked my brother - same answer- and he added "where the hell have you been all this time?"

Then I asked my daughter's boyfriend - and he agreed too. That's a survey showing four out of four opinions that the higher beings in the churches do not believe the "superhero" line on jesus Christ. Admittedly I surveyed four non-believers - but surely beleivers would expect teh higher beings in the church to believe too!

I naively thought that teh higher up you went in the church order, the deeper teh faith and that if a minister or priest discovered they no longer believed the super-natural stuff then they'd quit. I didn't think they'd get promoted!

i wonder how you'd go about finding out what they really do believe -- it's not as though I can send the pope and email and ask him

" in your heart of hearts do you really and truly believe Mary was a virgin, and do you really believe Jesus was dead as dead but came back to life a couple of days later?"

If this amazing possibility is true - that most higher-level church authorities do not believe the supernatural stuff about Jesus's life - why am I the only one who seems to be enraged by this?

if it is true, what does this mean? Surely it means you can't trust what anyone in power says and that truth is a very lowly regarded commodity in our society.

We desperately need an infallible truth detection device in our society - as that would be the only way to get to the truth - there certainly seems no point in asking people!

Carol

 

[cava]

Walking into a church does not make you a christian, any more than walking into a garage makes you a car.

I think a lot a people are going to be surprised who actually gets to heaven, and who does not!

 

[George]

something very disturbing happened for me in the last couple of days.

...

We desperately need an infallible truth detection device in our society - as that would be the only way to get to the truth - there certainly seems no point in asking people!

Carol

In AUstralia we have more than 140 religions registered, surely they all cannot be right.

Recently fellow came to Australia who supposedly had contact with higher being, and he said that higher being - God told him 5 words:

You've all got it wrong.

Making a possibility, that all religins have elements of truth and the rest was affected by their comprehension of their universe at the time.

 

[Simon]

Walking into a church does not make you a christian, any more than walking into a garage makes you a car.

I think a lot a people are going to be surprised who actually gets to heaven, and who does not!

Who do you reckon has the best chance of getting in?

What if a person is really really good but doesn't have faith? Does he go straight to hell?

Or the really nasty bad catholic who repents on his deathbed? Does he get a express ticket upstairs?

How does it really work you reckon?

 

[cava]

Who do you reckon has the best chance of getting in?

What if a person is really really good but doesn't have faith? Does he go straight to hell?

Or the really nasty bad catholic who repents on his deathbed? Does he get a express ticket upstairs?

How does it really work you reckon?

Ahh, the quintessential million dollar question, that most if not all religions profess to have the answer for! Really deserving of a thread on it's own.

How would I know the answer to your questions, I am not the creator of the universe. I am not God! I am essentially a small speck of dust in the scheme of things with an appropriate diminutive intellect.

All I can do is try to follow what the bible says, which is to accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour. Now I know that, that may not be fashionable with some on this site, but in my heart I honestly believe that is the beginning of my journey to heaven. Quite simple really, without the usual theology that goes with many mainstream church's.

For me personally the next step is to try and act the way that God would want me to be. Not any easy ask - at least for me.

cava

 

[Simon]

Ahh, the quintessential million dollar question, that most if not all religions profess to have the answer for! Really deserving of a thread on it's own.

How would I know the answer to your questions, I am not the creator of the universe. I am not God! I am essentially a small speck of dust in the scheme of things with an appropriate diminutive intellect.

All I can do is try to follow what the bible says, which is to accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour. Now I know that, that may not be fashionable with some on this site, but in my heart I honestly believe that is the beginning of my journey to heaven. Quite simple really, without the usual theology that goes with many mainstream church's.

For me personally the next step is to try and act the way that God would want me to be. Not any easy ask - at least for me.

cava

I respect what you say and believe - but you did observe that we would be surprised about who gets in and who doesn't.

Thought you may have had an inside scoop on the deal.

Oh well back to the whole blind faith struggle with the whole religion thing.

 

[JamesGG]

Hiya,

At risk of dragging this thread further off-topic, my take on this is simple.

I have a faith, not a religion.

For me, the bigger picture (in this context, at least), is more important than the details. Particularly when those details have being playing Chinese whispers between several different languages and many hundreds of years.

With that in mind, I constantly look to develop and improve as a person. And, I look to make the most of life and the time I have to spend. As with everything, I believe a balance is needed.

I can't possibly know what the criteria is for eternal paradise, if such a place exists. I can't possibly know with any great degree of certainly what happened 2,000 years ago, either, let alone how it happened. The way I see it, nor can any other person alive today.

I know that my way of thinking does not sit well with a lot of people. My Christian friends think I'm taking the easy road and don't have enough faith. My non-Christian friends usually just assume that I'm Christian.

To each their own. I'm happy.

Cheers

James.

 

[Georges]

Hi.i'm a pretty alternative thinking kinda person, so here goes!

1. that aliens visit us in spaceships (very possible! as seen on UFO sightings on tv)

2. that our personalities are infuenced by the date of our birth (I believe that, there is a book I have by Suzanne White which combines western and chinese signs, 12 x 12 signs, making 144 unique personalities. Usually when I read it, they are quite accurate maybe up to 80% of stating the person's natural character. Eg if the book says the person loves humour, or is stubborn, or always thinks he is right, or is very loving or hardworking etc. BUt i also believe we are given the power of Now, this life, to overcome any character shortcomings.)

3. that powerful Americans and other powerful people from other countries
are secretly operating a new world order. (Quite possible).

4. that masons are run by satnists with paedophilic tendencies (Don;t know about that, but do know that they have very ancient Pagan beliefs and ceremonies. Oh my the way recently they found many children bones under the attic of Benjamin Franklin, a mason, and archeologists say possibly they were buried there when Franklin was alive).

5. that spirits can talk through people (yup, and walls too! Read Robert Monroe's classing on Out of Body Experience when I was young, tried his induction exercise, and after about 2 weeks I had my first OBE!)

6. that someone was born without the help of a male sperm and tht person
came back to life after being dead for three days (nope. But check this out, the story is all mystical and psychological. In Dec25, in the northern hemisphere, the zodiac sign of Virgo is in the eastern sky. And the sun is at its lowest angle, starting its new ascend getting higher each day. Hence, "Mr J" (God=symbol of the Sun the lifegiver to earth by the ancient pagan mystics) is born. And the sun comes out from the east sky each morning, hence, it is born from the East, by the sign of Virgo on Dec25. Virgo is the symbol of virgin. And in a stable with some animals= the zodiac signs. In April, when he is said to be on the cross, died and resurrected, is when the sun is crossing the equator, which the ancient Jewish celebrate as "Passover" or literally "Crossover(of the sun across the line)". And they believed that the Sun is starting His glory to mark the height of springtime, a time when things grow and blossom, and the ancients sacrifice the lamb to make the sun/god happy. April is the sign of Aries, the lamb/ram, which appropriately is the 1st sign in the zodiac. And in the books, He is called "The Lamb of God" several times, hinting to this symbology.)

7.that spetember 11 was an evil CIA operation designed to give the US government the excuse to expand their influence. (Maybe believe it, if you watch some of the evidences from people who claim this is true. Quite believable. ).

8. that by sincerely believing something will happen is enough to make that thing happen - with no extra work required. (Yes absolutely, seen it happen and done it many times. It creates the right opportunities and avenues, but it may require work/action to bring it about. Not really 'without work'".

9.that people can fore- tell a stranger's future (yup seen it happen before).

10. that someone can solve crimes using clairvoyant powers (yup, read that it has been done successfully by police in the USA).

 

[Georges]

To add to 6. also we have Egyptian God Horus thousands of years before bible, born by his Mother Isis who is a virgin, healed the sick, had powers, died on the cross(carrying a cross). Guess what type of sun is Horus? The Sun God. Very pagan indeed!

dont shoot the messenger!

 

[cava]

I respect what you say and believe - but you did observe that we would be surprised about who gets in and who doesn't.

Thought you may have had an inside scoop on the deal.

Most christians have a general belief in the 10 commandments and the need to follow them as if they were christian ambassadors. And indeed it would tend to be a logical step ie if you are a christian you would want to follow and emulate God's written commandments.

However, most tend not to know, or follow the most important of the commandments, being the first:

"You shall have no other Gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a carved image - any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God ..." Exodus 20.3-5 NKJV

This same verse is repeated in the bible at least twice, which to biblical scholars means that it is very important.

Also consider how many mainstream christian religions there are that have statues, or worship and pray to other entities, apart from God/Jesus and you may well have your answer.

Food for thought.

 

[Norwester]

There is no doubt that Jesus existed. However he just really had an extremely good marketing team..................and the Council of Nicaea to help things along a little later...........

Most Christian rituals have been ripped from paganism.

ciao

Nor

 

[Twitch]

Christianity is an impressive mind virus. Luckily "reason" is an effective antidote.

 

[cava]

Christianity is an impressive mind virus. Luckily "reason" is an effective antidote.

When you have seen the 'christian virus' at work on people physically, that I have seen, I would doubt that reasoning would play any part in the equation.

I have yet to see a doctor create a fully functioning eyeball in an eye socket that had the eyeball removed years previously in seconds, or a deaf child hear.

 

[JamesGG]

Christianity is an impressive mind virus. Luckily "reason" is an effective antidote.

Hiya,

As I said earlier, to each their own. Your comment really doesn't add any value to this topic and is typical of why religious discussions and debate on this forum are often closed too quickly.

One thing that many Christians have got right, at least, is tolerance of other people's opinions. Even if they believe otherwise.

Cheers,

James.

 

[Simon]

I have yet to see a doctor create a fully functioning eyeball in an eye socket that had the eyeball removed years previously in seconds, or a deaf child hear.

Cochlear implants do the job.

But all things aside - what points were you trying to make there?

 

[Mrs Bird]

Here are my answers...


1. that aliens visit us in spaceships
No and dont care. Would scare the livings daylights out of me if it was true.

2. that our personalities are infuenced by the date of our birth
No

3. that powerful Americans and other powerful people from other countries
are secretly operating a new world order
Yes...quite possible but still dont care much about it.

4. that masons are run by satnists with paedophilic tendencies

Yes...probable but unlikely...I would say a small minority may be but would be the same percentage in any organisation.

5. that spirits can talk through people

Yes...

6. that someone was born without the help of a male sperm and tht person
came back to life after being dead for three days

No, just a lovely story.

7.that spetember 11 was an evil CIA operation designed to give the US government the excuse to expand their influence

Hmmmm, there was always a big question mark about the plane that crashed into the white house...where exactly was the plane? You could only see smoke and debrie but no wings, body of plane etc.

8. that by sincerely believing something will happen is enough to make that thing happen - with no extra work required

Yes and No. I wanted my 4 year old niece to get better but she didnt.

9.that people can fore- tell a stranger's future

No, people only fullfill their own destiny because they believed in what they were told.

10. that someone can solve crimes using clairvoyant powers

Yes. My friend has been involved (and still is) in a very high profile missing child case in QLD. She is working directly with the taskforce, giving them all the info she receives from the other side. Unfortunately, the child has not been found.


So my top 3 most probable would be...

Number 10

Number 5

Number 3

Mrs Bird

 

[Olly]

However, most tend not to know, or follow the most important of the commandments, being the first:

"You shall have no other Gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a carved image - any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God ..." Exodus 20.3-5 NKJV

This same verse is repeated in the bible at least twice, which to biblical scholars means that it is very important.

Taking into account the above which I agree with (that those with religious faiths (should) believe & (should try to) follow the 10 commandments and (should think) that this one is the most important) - can you explain to me why catholics have statues of Mary and pray to her a lot? I've never understood this aspect of that religion. What's the answer?

For the record I'm agnostic, but I've always found religious faith fascinating and respect others beliefs.

Olly

For those not sure of the differences -
An atheist is one who denies the existence of a deity or of divine beings.
An agnostic is one who believes it impossible to know anything about God or about the creation of the universe and refrains from commitment to any religious doctrine.
Infidel means an unbeliever, especially a nonbeliever in Islam or Christianity.
A skeptic doubts and is critical of all accepted doctrines and creeds.

 

[cava]

can you explain to me why catholics have statues of Mary and pray to her a lot? I've never understood this aspect of that religion. What's the answer?

Once again, I am sorry that this topic appears to have hijacked this thread and it really is deserving of a separate thread.

However, this is one aspect of catholicism that continues to allude me. It is not biblical, and if the bible is a guide for christians, which it is, I think they are in big trouble.

I think a lot a people are going to be surprised who actually gets to heaven, and who does not!

 

[cava]

Cochlear implants do the job.

But all things aside - what points were you trying to make there?

It was in response to the attitude that God is effectively non-existent, and the brain child of an idle mind. Yet personal experience suggests otherwise.

 

[Simon]

When you have seen the 'christian virus' at work on people physically, that I have seen, I would doubt that reasoning would play any part in the equation.

I have yet to see a doctor create a fully functioning eyeball in an eye socket that had the eyeball removed years previously in seconds, or a deaf child hear.

So was your point that you are aware that these things have been done by God?

Here is a logical site that asks for any proof of the existence of a divine power but fails to find anyone willing to come forward with evidence. Some interesting reading...

http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/

If I start offending you with this discussion please let me know and I will stop.

Cheers,