What does $500 brl OIL mean??

Yep, I agree.

Base load power is needed to make hydrogen work as a fuel. It's needed to power electric vehicles. It's needed for water desalination. The only option is nuclear power, and hope like hell that the much better and cleaner and safer nuclear fusion comes along and replaces it.

See ya's.

Japan has the world's most sophisticated nuclear reactors and they cost about $100 per MWh - perhaps more. The newest reactor in the UK costs $140 / MWh. And this does not include the cost of fuel disposal which is a government responsibility.

Coal fired power in Australia costs $35 - $45 MWh. Gas fired costs $40 - $60 / MWh. Wind costs $90 - $110 / MWh. Solar photovoltaic is still $500+ / MWh but photovoltaic is old school - there are some much cheaper solar technologies coming onto the market (heated granite blocks with water flowing through them).

Thats without even looking at hot rocks, hydro, landfill gas and tidal.

If you think nuclear is cheapest - you are on crack. Particularly because uranium is just another mineral that is subject to supply and demand - what do you think would happen to the price if the world built another 50 nuclear power stations? It would be worse than iron ore.
 
Hi all,

Boomtown,

Interesting numbers, where do they come from?? What do they mean ?? (ie build cost,s or run costs, or both). I would hazard a guess that nuclear is expensive to build, but cheaper to run than coal, but I don't have any real knowledge of these facts. Can you point us to a source??

TC,

The ethanol thingy was a bit tongue in cheek. The 25 billion megalitres of water is the real interesting part, considering the total runnoff from the Australian mainland is 375 million megalitres.

I also find it hard to believe the current price of sugar around 12cents/lb (Oct futures).

The effect on residential property may not be that large as the savings from lower property prices in the burbs could still offset the higher transport costs. A t $5/litre or even $6/litre, commuting is still do-able with a bit of car pooling.
bye
 
If you think nuclear is cheapest - you are on crack. Particularly because uranium is just another mineral that is subject to supply and demand - what do you think would happen to the price if the world built another 50 nuclear power stations? It would be worse than iron ore.

I don't think I said nuclear was cheapest.

Anyway, we are talking about oil at $500 a barrel. Oil at $500 a barrel, I would imagine thermal coal, gas, etc. would be many multiples of todays prices. Nuclear power, I was lead to believe that most of the cost is in the construction, but once going, the amount of uranium used was tiny, and the cost of the fuel was tiny. If you have the actual figures, I would be happy to see them.

Those figures you quoted? Are they current?
I believe that thermal coal for electricity is done using long term contracts, that are often market sensitive. When the contracts get re-done, there may be some big shocks coming to electricity consumers. Once again, fill me in if this is wrong.


I would think $500 barrel oil, nuclear could well be the cheapest power source, and yes, uranium would go up with the fossil fuels, however the amount of uranium needed would still be tiny, but fire away as maybe I am on crack.

See ya's.
 
However I don’t see $500 because:
Once oil hits $XXX other technologies become competitive. Competition from solar, hydrogen, etc..

Remember people saying that $100 barrel oil would send economies to the wall? Not really having an effect yet.

Oil is so essential, that it just gets priced in, but something else gets cut back from the budget. Perhaps people will take fewer holidays, or cut consumer spending, change from steak and chicken, to sausages and rissoles, or house prices will drop.

Your observation that solar, hydrogen etc gets more competitive would be true if these power sources were not effected by the oil price. Problem is, as oil rises, so does coal and gas, lifting base load power, so that makes hydrogen even more expensive as a fuel. Rising oil makes the solar panels more expensive and the wind generators more expensive. It just goes on and on. I suspect oil will still be competitive at $500 a barrel.


We are still waisting oil. I've been sending grain by truck to Adelaide. :eek:
Now this is madness, $130 a tonne freight. You can send grain to the other side of the world by boat for much less than that. But with our stuffed up multi guage rail system, the railways can't compete. I heard on the ABC radio this morning the comparison of road freight to rail, and road freight was much much bigger. At $500 oil it will probably be worthwhile fixing the railroads of this country to the one guage, so that all interstate freight goes by rail. Steel wheels on steel Rail is 3 times more efficient than rubber tires I have heard.

See ya's.
 
Last edited:
Many of the nuclear power stations in the US are now working past their design life. We seem to agree that the majority cost of nuclear is in the construction so that means these power stations must be the cheapest on earth because they have been fully depreciated. By contrast a coal fired station still burns coal, no matter what age it is.

As TC points out, oil @ $500/b will raise all other costs, especially gas, because they will be using that to convert to liquids. But there really is no shortage of uranium, merely a shortage of will to dig it. Given time, trust and necessity recycling of spent rods will be accepted and a common sense approach to disposal will overcome that hurdle.

When I think of cost of construction of a nuclear plant two major areas spring to mind: Instrumentation and control (with doubly redundant systems) and high quality metals and skilled tradesmen to do the job. The cost of the former would be a fraction of what it would have been decades ago but the second will have multiplied. A N power station working with salt water would need a massive amount of nickel, for example. We are still guessing about costs then.

The "heavy water" reactors popular in the West are not the only option either. The Chinese are looking closely at "pebble bed" reactors which cannot "melt-down" and which can be modularised and thus (presumably) built more economically. (Western technology, Eastern will :))

Besides, if you believe the "global warming" hypothesis, no cost is too high to prevent TEOTWAWKI. But if it can be shown that hot rocks can meet base loads on a global scale I'm all for it.
 
Suppose it is a question of if you're talking $500 in todays dollars or tomorrows. People will continue to pay whatever a litre of fuel (while they may whinge about it the whole way thru) until someone invents something different.

Didnt Henry Ford say "if I'd asked people what they wanted, they would have asked for a better horse?"

People dont know what they want because they are routined into what they have... until someone else invents it or its marketed in such a way that they think they now want it and are willing to change to get it - and pay for it as well.
 
The only option is nuclear power, and hope like hell that the much better and cleaner and safer nuclear fusion comes along and replaces it.
See ya's.

Whoever solves that one will be the richest bloke on the planet.
It can be done but either it takes more energy to cause it than is generated unless to a scale that is uncontrollable.
 
I don't think I said nuclear was cheapest.

Anyway, we are talking about oil at $500 a barrel. Oil at $500 a barrel, I would imagine thermal coal, gas, etc. would be many multiples of todays prices. Nuclear power, I was lead to believe that most of the cost is in the construction, but once going, the amount of uranium used was tiny, and the cost of the fuel was tiny. If you have the actual figures, I would be happy to see them.

Those figures you quoted? Are they current?
I believe that thermal coal for electricity is done using long term contracts, that are often market sensitive. When the contracts get re-done, there may be some big shocks coming to electricity consumers. Once again, fill me in if this is wrong.


I would think $500 barrel oil, nuclear could well be the cheapest power source, and yes, uranium would go up with the fossil fuels, however the amount of uranium needed would still be tiny, but fire away as maybe I am on crack.

See ya's.

The numbers were off a chart on my office wall that I can't find on the net atm. So I copy pasted this from an article in 2005 http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa5490/is_200506/ai_n21375207:

Can nuclear power make a comeback after 20 years, during which time hardly a single new plant has been commissioned among the developed world's countries?

In the absence of any government action, the answer depends on the costs of nuclear compared with its alternatives. Because nuclear plants involve high capital costs, they must be run almost continuously to be economical. This puts them into direct competition with coal-based power plants.

Gas-based generation plants, on the other hand, are less capital intensive, but their fuel is dearer and therefore the electricity produced is generally more costly. Despite that, they do play an important role as a provider of peak supply. Gas turbines can also be engineered to respond quickly to changing market conditions, backing off when demand and prices fall and rapidly firing up to take advantage of demand and price surges.

Hydro plants also involve high capital costs, and they can only store enough water in their dams to run one quarter of the time. Again, they operate to take advantage of peak demand periods.

Other power sources: wind, solar panels, etc., are uncompetitive except in very remote locations or at very low energy share levels. Their reliance on the Sun and the wind makes them intrinsically unreliable.

The costs of different power plants are shown in Table 1. These include three different estimates for nuclear power, with costs varying from the low $50s to the upper $60s per MWh. Coal in Eastern Australia comes in at under $40 per MWh and natural gas at about $44. The costs in Table 1 exclude taxes, subsidies and other regulations designed to alter choice of power generating technologies or mitigate greenhouse gas emissions.

As it is 30-60 per cent more expensive than coal-based generation, and somewhat more costly than gas, in the absence of government intervention, nuclear power does not have a future in Australia in the medium-to-long term. Nuclear is, on the other hand, significantly more cost effective than wind and all other exotic alternatives.

Compared with coal, natural gas and hydro generators have greater value because they are more flexible and can start and stop much more easily. Wind is the opposite-its unreliability is a detriment per se and, in addition, it imposes costs elsewhere on the system because other plant must be made available as a back-up.

Something to keep in mind is that the $ / MW figures given are 3 years old - and the costs of "exotic" sources of power such as wind, solar and geothermal are falling rapidly. Geothermal is particularly attractive because it can compete as baseload power against coal fired power stations without having to find a way to store the energy during peak production periods.

The reality is that most of Australia's base load coal fired plants will be shut down in the next 20 years due to carbon taxes. Talk to anyone who works for a major coal fired generator and they are just hanging out for their redundancy pay :D. The obvious solution is to go to gas - we have TONS of natural gas and coal seam methane and you can turn a gas fired plant on and off at the flick of a switch - something you cant do with coal or nuclear.
 
There is over 4100 petajoules of P2 reserves in the Bowen basin and Surat basin as calculated today.

I know that a small gas fired power plant (enough to power a small town) will burn about 2 petajoules per year.

Thats alot of coal seam methane. And thats just one small corner of Queensland. When gas is that abundant nuclear just doesnt make sense. And by the way you can turn coal seam gas into diesel using the Fischer-Tropsch conversion pioneered by the Nazis in WW2.
 
The obvious solution is to go to gas - we have TONS of natural gas and coal seam methane and you can turn a gas fired plant on and off at the flick of a switch - something you cant do with coal or nuclear.

I'm not sure we have enough gas to replace coal fired electricity. Somehow I doubt it. I'm aware there is plenty in the north west but that is a long way away and gas is expensive to ship. Those big round tanks on the gas tankers are expensive and use a lot of nickel. (It keeps cropping up!) There is plenty of Coal Seam Methane (CSM) in and around Sydney and Newcastle but you need to be constantly drilling new horizontal holes and "fracturing" the coal around them, a process still not fully understood. So it will never be as cheap as free-flowing gas under pressure. Looking at a chart of Sydney Gas, it has been treading this path for 12 years and still has not achieved mediocrity, let alone greatness. They are extracting CSM within Sydney city boundries (Camden, I think) and have been for years. There must be problems with the technology.

Once you have the gas you can burn it in Jumbo-jet engines which is truly quick, easy peaking power, or in steam boilers which is more suitable for base load. That is the process which would give the cheaper costs. If we were to go to anything like $500 oil gas would be similarly expensive because it will in demand replacing liquids in many fields and to roast oil-shale and sands. It takes two barrels of oil equiv. gas to get three of heavy, tarry crude. A process akin to using caviar to make mock crab, as I once heard it explained.

The US and Canada have plenty of oil in shale and sands but the current techniques of extraction are primitive and badly polluting. Plonking a nuclear reactor on the fields and heating the oil in-situ must be the only environmentally acceptable way to recover it. But that is still theory too.

It ain't easy!!!!!
 
You dont really move gas around as LNG unless you are moving it really far (like Japan) or only moving small quantities (remote power generation). Sticking it in a pipeline, despite the parasitic load of system use gas, isnt a bad way to move energy around. I suspect its proportionately less than the transmission loss on high KV lines (especially on a hot day) but dont know enough to have a really informed opinion.

All that said I think that clean coal is a dog of a technology and that nuclear is politically impossible unless its in the **** end of Northern Territory where no one lives (in which case the transmission losses will be horrific).
 
All that said I think that clean coal is a dog of a technology and that nuclear is politically impossible unless its in the **** end of Northern Territory where no one lives (in which case the transmission losses will be horrific).

This is the anti-nuclear fear I don't understand. The reality is that in France there is no such fear. The locals farm under the cooling towers and their children get job choices they would not have had.

There is nothing to fear but fear itself! That quote never made sense to me but it is beginning to.
 
This is the anti-nuclear fear I don't understand. The reality is that in France there is no such fear. .

And I saw on 60 minutes or some similar show the locals also swimming in the hot water from a nuclear power station. I suppose it was from the cooling process or something. The water was perfectly safe.

See ya's.
 
The reality is that most of Australia's base load coal fired plants will be shut down in the next 20 years due to carbon taxes. The obvious solution is to go to gas - we have TONS of natural gas and coal seam methane and you can turn a gas fired plant on and off at the flick of a switch - something you cant do with coal or nuclear.

One thing I have a view about is that I regard oil and gas as a more valuable and scarcer resource than coal. Therefore I think neither should be burned in baseload power stations, but rather saved for transport and agricultural use.

Not much sence burning gas now for base load, if in 50 years time it's run out, and then we have to turn solids [coal] to liquids. Just something to consider.

Gas certainly is good for it's peakload abilities. Hydro the best for peakload. Hydro is so valuable for peakload power, that's all it should be used for, and I think that is the case.

See ya's.




Edit.
PS, and if coal base load power is finished in 20 years time, there is no other option besides nuclear I reckon. And if that is the case, the plants need to be started now.
I reckon coal fired base load power plants will still be the main power supply in 20 years.

People are hypocrites We all are. We/they are all anti-global warming, but not at the expense of our standard of living or lifestyle. Peoples back pockets and lifestyle will come before the environment.

Any government who shuts down coal fired base load power stations will guarentee power shortages and crisis. They will guarantee they will get voted out at the next election. Once power shortages are common, then the hypocritical populous will be screeming "how has this happened? Where are the nuclear power plants?"

Who would want to be a politition?
.
.
.
 
Last edited:
I have to agree that it seems a bit crap to use a portable, high energy content fuel like natural gas for base load power. The financial viability of facilities like Loy Yang will depend on carbon pricing - and no one (with the possible exception of Rudd) knows what that carbon pricing is going to be.

Australia has among the cheapest electricity in the world. That is going to change - I expect electricity prices to double or triple over the next 10 years. Maybe something to keep in mind with your investing strategy - dont buy an alumina refinery in Australia....

Also keep in mind that while in volume terms nuclear power plants use less fuel, fuel is still about 30% of the running cost of a nuclear power station (even taking into consideration interest expense on capex). If the price of uranium goes through the roof, the financial viability of nuclear power stations will deteroriate. In one sense its a race to see who can come up with the cheapest technology to replace coal baseload.

BHPB's Olympic Mine Expansion is (I think) the world's largest uranium deposit and may help keep prices down - but the mine is really more about copper and gold and uranium is just the icing on the cake. I dont have a good sense of how much uranium is actually in the world's largest uranium mine....
 
To get back on topic - I think $500 barrel oil means increased urban density (go go inner ring property values) and a better shot at us hitting our 2050 aspirational greenhouse gas targets because the transport industry produces about a 1/3 of greenhouse emissions and if no one can afford to drive that will drop.
 
Oil. Are you all ready for this?? I have a friend who works in Dubai. He is a chemical engineer working on one of the oil islands. He gets paid good money and works something like 18 days on and 15 days off (something like that, but those figues may not be 100% accurate).
Anyhoo he just left a few days ago for Dubai. We had a conversation about oil as that is what his company does, extract raw oil from the earth.

He told me that it cost the company LESS than $2 per BARREL :eek::eek:to extract the oil. I cant remember how much they sell it for, but the people they sell it to refine it, then they on sell it etc.
 
This is the anti-nuclear fear I don't understand. The reality is that in France there is no such fear. The locals farm under the cooling towers and their children get job choices they would not have had.

There is nothing to fear but fear itself! That quote never made sense to me but it is beginning to.
Choices.. Probably Nuke is a good one. Though it would be great if there was some life changing breakthrough in something like solar cells, heres to hoping. Good to see them stop building a new Las Vegas in Dubai at least.

Don't understand the fear? Talk to someone who lived in East Europe after the Chernobyl accident. Maybe it's overrated but gee it's easy to understand.
 
I looked at the papers from the 1970's last year to get a heads up on what an energy crunch might look like.

Start with front page adds in the Courier Mail for scooters :) Might not be a bad business to be in over the next decade.

Long trains, victory gardens, bikes, solar, wind, all alternates, short air travel, long distance anything, Mum's 4WD taxi (gas guzzlers = the new smoking perhaps.. sort of like the look you would get now if you let your kids go out in the garden and play under the water hose) and various forms of conspicuous consumption.
 
Back
Top